Prop 8 trial + DADT debate = Death rattle of the Right Wing

February 3, 2010 at 9:30 am 161 comments

By Rick Jacobs

Last night, I watched Lt. Dan Choi and Gen. Wesley Clark face off against Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council and Lt. Col. Robert Maginnis on Larry King Live.

The topic was “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” (DADT), but the subject at hand was how America deals with minorities. Just as I saw during the Prop. 8 trial, Mr. Perkins raised the shibboleths of fear and division in an America that he apparently no longer loves.

What has DADT to do with same-sex marriage? In effect, everything. For nearly a year, Lt. Choi has been the picture of the American patriot, a West Point graduate who is fluent in Arabic and who served our nation in Iraq. Dan is not a political animal; he is passionate, determined and simply desires to honor the nation that gave his parents and him the opportunity to live freely. When Dan “came out” on the Rachel Maddow show last March, the military machinery slowly, inexorably came after him, determined to remove this highly trained, valued soldier from their midst for being himself.

Last June, 162,741 Courage Campaign members signed letters of support that Dan presented at his Army discharge hearing and that are now part of Dan’s official record. Fortunately, Dan has not yet been dismissed, though his discharge is under review.

While yesterday’s congressional hearing was remarkable and welcome in many ways, we do not need to wait to save his job. Will Dan still be fired? How many other Dans will be fired while the military studies this issue again?

We saw Tony Perkins taking talking points from the Prop. 8 campaign that were revealed at the trial. Mr. Perkins threatened on the Larry King show that “we might have to return to the draft” if we allow gays and lesbians to serve openly because so many soldiers would either quit the military or not enlist. Mr. Perkins went further, saying that President Obama is putting the country at risk because the Joint Chiefs have been asked to review the DADT policy in a time of war. Finally, Mr. Perkins recalled having showered together with 80 men while he was in the military and said he’d feel threatened by a gay man showering there with him.

Okay, got that? If we let those 66,000 or so gays and lesbians who now serve in the armed forces (according to UCLA’s Williams Institute) stop lying and be open, we’ll have to reinstate the draft, we’ll lose wars and Mr. Perkins’ own heterosexual identity — which is apparently quite weak — will be threatened. In other words, the gays will eat you and destroy our country.

Mr. Perkins played a key role in the Prop. 8 trial. He used many of these same words when he said on a video that was used to scare the religious right into supporting Prop. 8. At that time, he said that if gays and lesbians marry, we will have more incest, pedophilia and eventually polygamy. He said that. And his other allies in the fight to separate Americans from each other joined right in.

That was the basis of their defense in the Prop. 8 trial: If gays and lesbians are allowed to marry, America will collapse. And now they are extending that argument about marriage to the military.

Mr. Perkins admitted on Larry King Live last night that “times have changed.” What he did not admit is that he hates these times and really hates America. He craves a return to a mythical time in this country when white men ruled, when wives did as they were told and when his country club only had people in it who looked like him.

We saw at the Prop. 8 trial that people like Tony Perkins and Ron Prentice have used fear and stereotype for decades to prevent gays and lesbians from being equal citizens, blocking them from the institutions of marriage and the military.

We will not allow these libels to continue to fly across the airwaves unchecked. That’s precisely why President Obama was right to demand that DADT be overturned, though he waited longer than many would like. Meanwhile, our national security suffers as Arabic linguists like Dan Choi lose their jobs or don’t even join up.

The time has come for the courts to rule that discrimination is un-American. As lives continue to be ruined across our country, that decision to make full equality the law of our land can’t come a moment too soon.

Entry filed under: Uncategorized.

Scorecards, Not Balls and Strikes Oppression is Oppression, And Oppression is Harmful to Society

161 Comments Add your own

  • 1. TPAKyle  |  February 3, 2010 at 9:44 am

    Now that they’ve agreed we can die for our country, it only makes sense that we can marry as well.

    Reply
  • 2. ASW  |  February 3, 2010 at 9:45 am

    It seems to me that we already have rampant issues with pedophilia and incest in this country.

    Perhaps its the group espousing the rhetoric that needs to look inward as to how best to curb these behaviors in their own community, as opposed to pushing it off on a convenient scapegoat.

    For the record, I’m a straight man, and I’ve showered with other males before [from ages 11-22 @ summer camp], both straight and gay, and I didn’t ever feel threatened by it.

    Reply
    • 3. Bill  |  February 3, 2010 at 1:20 pm

      A heterosexual who is secure in their sexuality does not experience the kinds of issues that Tony Perkins describes.

      And certainly if Mr. Perkins did shower with 80 men, statistically, 6-8 of them were gay men.

      I can only assume Mr. Perkins exited said shower with his anus firmly intact since he went no further with that analogy.

      Reply
  • 4. fiona64  |  February 3, 2010 at 9:47 am

    The only people who feel “threatened” by the presence of LGBT people are so ridiculously narcissistic that they should seek counseling. What on earth makes you think that your mere presence, and being a particular gender, automatically renders you attractive to a gay man or a lesbian?

    Talk about over-inflated ego!

    Love,
    Fiona

    Reply
    • 5. JonT  |  February 3, 2010 at 11:57 am

      Ha! Yes – I’ve often wondered that myself. It’s like if you’re gay, then you automatically want to make out with every other guy present.

      Anybody ever told a friend they were gay, only to have them make *absolutely* clear that they are not? Just in case, you know… :)

      Reply
      • 6. Ronnie  |  February 3, 2010 at 12:09 pm

        My room mate at the first college I attended…He was my Brofriend…luvs the gays…hot as hell….He was a model for me…He loves gay clubs because of all the straight women and the fact that he didn’t have to fight with another straight guy for their attention….He moved to Australia…. : (

        Reply
    • 7. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 5:05 pm

      Yet another piece of brilliance, sis! You go!

      Reply
  • 8. Felyx  |  February 3, 2010 at 9:48 am

    LOL The heterosexuals will all leave the military and the gays will all sign up. What a reversal!!!

    Oh the irony….a nation defended by patriotic Gays!

    Reply
    • 9. Miller  |  February 3, 2010 at 4:42 pm

      Furthermore, the type of person who would leave or not join the military when gay and lesbians can serve openly are the kind we don’t want in the military anyway. They are the bigoted disrespectful idots who give the US military a bad name. I’d much rather have 1,000 talented gay and lesbians in the military than the 2,000 bigots.

      Reply
      • 10. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 5:05 pm

        And we would probably see our military accomplish more, with less waste!

        Reply
      • 11. Skemono  |  February 3, 2010 at 9:43 pm

        I’d much rather have 1,000 talented gay and lesbians in the military than the 2,000 bigots.

        Alas.

        Reply
      • 12. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 4, 2010 at 4:43 am

        Skemono, these people outlined in that article are exactly the ones we need to get rid of. They are a shanda to the human race.

        Reply
      • 13. Miller  |  February 4, 2010 at 4:59 pm

        Wow, I had never heard of all that neo nazi shit in our military. That’s scary. Click on the link from Skemono “Alas”

        Reply
  • 14. Larry Kenneth Little  |  February 3, 2010 at 9:54 am

    “Taxation without representation.” With gays and lesbians victims of religious discrimination of the kind Tony Perkins embraces, we have to ask……..if gays and lesbians are refused equal rights, should they have the right to their tax rebellion? Churches have a tax free status and they are using that tax free money to enter the political arena. They are using these vast resources to encourage their congregations to hate gay and lesbians citizens. It would seem to me that any political activity by the church should be reason to revoke their tax free status. It would seem to me I should have freedom from religion and that my constitutional rights are violated when I am exposed to the kind of hatred coming from the pulpit and into my living room and on my television screen.

    Reply
    • 15. Felyx  |  February 3, 2010 at 10:05 am

      We are not taxed without representation. Slaves were, and those who live in the Territory of the city of Washington in the District of Columbia still are taxed without representation, but GLBT in general can go to their congressmen and register complaints.

      I enjoy your posts so I’d like to keep them rational and factual.

      Reply
      • 16. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 3:14 pm

        But, Felyx, in many ways we ARE taxed without representation. If we truly had any representation, then DADT would NEVER have been in existence in the first place, and therefore would not be undergoing th repeal process now. Also, if we truly had any worthwhile representation, the UCMJ would never have had an article making the mere fact of being gay grounds for a dishonorable discharge. If we truly had representation, we would long ago have gained full marriage equality in all 50 states and at the federal level and DOMA would never have come into being. So, Larry is right in so many ways. We truly are taxed without representation.

        Reply
      • 17. Felyx  |  February 4, 2010 at 7:25 pm

        You may be confusing TWR with political powerlessness. We are represented (so long as you are in one of the 50 states.)

        Just because your representation sucks ass doesn’t mean you don’t have it.

        I would add that we have some of the lowest taxes in the western world….I think it is safe to say we are getting what we pay for! LOL ;`P

        Reply
  • 18. Ronnie  |  February 3, 2010 at 10:00 am

    “That was the basis of their defense in the Prop. 8 trial: If gays and lesbians are allowed to marry, America will collapse. And now they are extending that argument about marriage to the military”

    LMAO!!!! when they say that I say….”How did that work out for Canada and all the other countries that not only legalized SSM but allow openly gay people to serve in their military?

    Why is god rewarding them with a better economy and mostly peace..if he was against it?

    PWND

    Reply
    • 19. JonT  |  February 3, 2010 at 12:02 pm

      The argument that if gays are allowed to serve openly in the military, then retention will drop, and no one will join has been made in every case where a military was considering allowing openly gay people to serve.

      In no case has this ever been born out by the facts. I recommend reading ‘Unfriendly Fire’ from Nathaniel Frank – he examines this and other fear mongering in relation to DADT and DADT-like rules in both our military, and others who allow gays to serve openly.

      Reply
    • 20. Marlene Bomer  |  February 3, 2010 at 12:51 pm

      I was listening to some GOPuke congressman on NPR the other day spew about this, and his excuse was that both Canada’s and Britain’s military is inferior to the US’s, and thus has no bearing on those countries allowing their military to allow gays.

      This moron even spewed about transsexual and hermaphrodites(!) being allowed in the military! And of course he spewed about the poor boys being forced to shower with teh gayz.

      Reply
      • 21. Ronnie  |  February 3, 2010 at 1:00 pm

        Wait, wait wait wait…He really said that?….Isn’t that like asking for them to take action against the US to show how inferior they are not….Wow!!!

        You GOP we said the same thing about the Japanese….How did that work out?

        Yes we showed our force by retaliating with 2 big bombs…Ooooo such force….Coward more like it.

        No American armed forces man power and ego is fueled by the the fact that we can end it with the drop of one bomb..and that is why this country is hated by most of the real world and that is why we are constantly under attack….Now that I mention it the parallels btw. that and gay rights are uncanny.

        Reply
      • 22. Felyx  |  February 3, 2010 at 1:37 pm

        Whoa whoa whoa!! Hold on here….let’s keep with the truth PLEASE!

        Regarding our ‘poor boys being forced to shower with teh gayz’….this is a complete farce and is taken completely out of context.

        They already ARE ‘being forced to shower with teh gayz’!

        Now they will be forced to shower with the OPENLY gay gayz!!!

        LOLOL HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

        Reply
  • 23. ASW  |  February 3, 2010 at 10:03 am

    Fiona, I think you’re spot on with narcissism as the root of the issue.

    I’m fairly sure that not every gay man out there wants to play grab-ass [pardon the use of the term] with you just ’cause you’re naked and within arm’s reach.

    It’s not like people have self-control, or decency, or taste.

    Reply
    • 24. Jenny O  |  February 3, 2010 at 1:24 pm

      That’s the first thing I thought of when I read that quote. These people must think gays have absolutely no self-control. It’s incredibly offensive.

      Reply
    • 25. Bill  |  February 3, 2010 at 1:54 pm

      It is not only narcissism. It is also misogyny.

      For if something sexual does not appeal to the sexuality of the heterosexual male, it is deemed wrong or perverse. Just because THEY don’t get off on it. Only sexuality that appeals to THEM is acceptable to them.

      Look at the Video Music Awards this year.

      Janet Jackson was grabbing men’s crotches left and right. Rihanna was on stage with a dozen assault rifles and was nearly naked. Not a peep about that.

      On the MTV Awards, Miley Cyrus – a 16 year old girl at the time, proceeded to work a stripper pole in shorts that left nothing to the imagination. Riding it up and down like, well, a stripper. At 16. And not a peep about that. No FCC complaints. No letters to Jesus. Nothing.

      Yet when Adam Lambert did the same thing, he was crucified. (I’m not a personal fan and personally thought his performance sucked, but that’s not the point.)

      See the trend here???

      If something gets a straight guy’s rocks off, all is OK. But any display of sexuality of any kind that does not appeal to the heterosexual male is deemed vulgar and ‘wrong.’ This is why you will almost never hear a straight man refer to lesbians when talking about gay people. Because lesbians get their rocks off. They masturbate almost exclusively to girl-on-girl porn. Every straight male friend I have has confirmed this. So again, if it gets the straight guy off, it is acceptable. If anyone else is getting off on it, it is ‘wrong’ and ‘perverse.’

      That is why, at its core, homophobia seems really rooted in misogyny to me.

      Straight parents should try and correct this character-flaw in their young heterosexual boys. It is vulgar, unnecessary, and creates a class of men that are crass, vulgar and dangerous to women and humanity alike.

      Reply
      • 26. fiona64  |  February 3, 2010 at 1:59 pm

        Bill, your assessment is confirmed by science:

        http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/05/30/homophobia-misogyny.htm

        Reply
      • 27. Bill  |  February 3, 2010 at 2:30 pm

        Thanks, Fiona. Interesting read.

        I thought I’d find you here!!!!

        Love,
        Bill

        Reply
      • 28. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 5:09 pm

        And Bill, not only is it misogynous, not only is it dangerous to women as well as gays, it is also a good sign of having an inferiority complex. When you have an nferiority complex, you can only feel human, and worthwhile, by making others feel as if they are les than you and that you are better than them.

        Reply
    • 29. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 3:19 pm

      And I for one, would not play anything sexual with Mr. Perkins even for practice. His attitude is just way too ignorant, self-serving, and downright ugly. And that may even be a good description of his looks.

      BTW, Colin Powell has just said that he feels DADT need to be repealed, and needs to be repeal with due haste. I knew he was a smart man. AFter all, he refused to run for POTUS because he said the job isn’t worth the headache.

      Reply
  • 30. Michelle Evans  |  February 3, 2010 at 10:15 am

    We must keep up the pressure on all fronts to restore our equal rights in every facet of life. Anyone who believes that we must sit back and wait for the “right time” at some future time does not understand the reality of our situation. That’s why I urge everyone to support the ballot initiative in California to return our rights:

    http://www.restoreequality2010.com/

    We can always sit on our hands for another two years, as many people want, or we can sit on the sidelines and see the religious right continue to take away what is ours forever, as they further entrench their rhetoric and dogma into state constitutions across America.

    We may not win the Prop 8 trial currently is in progress, or the subsequent appeals, we may not win at the ballot box in 2010, but we must try, and continue to try until we are free and equal.

    Reply
    • 31. fiona64  |  February 3, 2010 at 10:24 am

      Michelle wrote: Anyone who believes that we must sit back and wait for the “right time” at some future time does not understand the reality of our situation.

      Amen! This is the point at which I will trot out Martin Luther King, Jr.’s “Letter from Birmingham Jail””:

      Full text at http://abacus.bates.edu/admin/offices/dos/mlk/letter.html

      Quote:

      I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

      Reply
      • 32. rpx  |  February 3, 2010 at 2:03 pm

        Fiona we know you are a hetro married woman but I swear, I swear, you could pass for queer. Your insights and your contributions are really valuable.

        Reply
      • 33. fiona64  |  February 3, 2010 at 2:13 pm

        Thanks, rpx. I have been working on marriage equality issues since 2004, which means that (unfortunately) I know where to find the resources to back up my points.

        I say “unfortunately,” because I truly wish it were not necessary for me to do such things.

        I like to believe that, had I been old enough (I was born in 1964), I would have marched with Dr. King.

        As I mentioned in another thread, I have so many friends and loved ones who are LGBT. I take tremendous exception to *anyone* telling those dear people that they are not worthy of equality, love, civil rights and simple human dignity.

        During times in my life when I was bullied and harassed, there were people who refused to stand with me lest they be targeted next (all the while whispering that they were on my side). I decided a long time ago that I would not be that kind of person. Moral cowardice is not a quality to which I aspire.

        Love,
        Fiona

        Reply
      • 34. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 5:10 pm

        Not only that, but you really know how to dress beautifully!

        Reply
      • 35. fiona64  |  February 4, 2010 at 6:58 am

        Aw, shucks, Richard!

        Reply
    • 36. David Kimble  |  February 3, 2010 at 10:26 am

      Yes, I have been aware of this campaign for about a month now, I have already gathered signatures and sent my signatures to be counted. Yeah!

      Reply
    • 37. Happy  |  February 3, 2010 at 10:29 am

      I’m with you, Michelle. I’ve never heard of change being effected by being quiet and keeping an issue OUT of the lime light, but it’s happened time and time again when the opposite occurs. I’d have this issue on the ballot every available year until Prop. 8 is revoked. Keep beating the drum until enough people join the dance! :)

      Reply
  • 38. Alyson  |  February 3, 2010 at 10:25 am

    I am a marriage and family therapist and I work with the military insurance program to provide counselling for families regarding the myriad of stressors involved in being a military family. One argument that brings DADT AND Marriage Equality together that I saw all the time – but rarely hear discussed inthe main stream media is as follows:

    It’s not just the men and women in the fighting force getting the short end of the stick – their families have NO access to health care, mental health counseling, retirement OR DEATH benefits of any sort as acknowledging their existance would end the whole career. That is NOT right. If they do come in for support they have to pay out of pocket. Can you imagine your loved one NOT only risking their life for this country but having that country provide NO support for the family that is left behind?

    It just makes me crazy. Even if they repeal this..will they ONLY allow benfits to married straight spouses?

    UGH

    I’d love to see a 20-20 report on the families of these people- pretty hard to track them down if getting fired is the consequence wouldn’t you say?

    They so do not want us out of the closet and we are so out and so fine with who we are ..now they need to catch up. And Tony….you ain’t that cute..I am sure the gay boys in the military will resist just fine so go ahead and pick up that soap.

    Reply
    • 39. Happy  |  February 3, 2010 at 10:41 am

      Repealing DADT might include providing benefits to family, but that might also require the repeal of DOMA, since gay marriage is not a federally recognized union.

      On the other hand, there might be a compromise that allows benefits under a domestic partnership (UGH!) type arrangement, like a lot of corporations do today.

      USA, just get over it and make marriage universal/legal in all states and territories – a union between two adult people. Period. Seriously, it’s going to get there eventually anyway. What purpose other than oppression is served by dragging it out like this?!?!?

      Reply
      • 40. Lo  |  February 3, 2010 at 1:59 pm

        Speaking of repealing DOMA… the works for this are already in process through the RFMA bill, RESPECT FOR MARRIAGE ACT, that has been introduced in the House of Reps. Major issues like DADT in the process of repeal, Prop 8 trial, and DC gay marriage, will hopefully make it easier for this bill to become enacted. Here are 2 links to tell you more about this bill:
        From Wikipedia:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect_for_Marriage_Act
        From HRC:
        http://www.hrc.org/13530.htm

        Although it is a step short of what we want, meaning having all states recognize our marriage, it is a good step forward towards the ultimate goal. My hope is that with all that’s going on this can take effect sooner than later.

        Reply
    • 41. Patricia Hughes  |  February 3, 2010 at 11:41 am

      Thanks for addressing this, because my first thought on reading the blog post was- DADT and Gay Marriage issues ARE intertwined–for the reasons you state, but also for the very simple reason that–If we get Military rights–but no marriage rights–there will be no benefits, BUT if we get Marriage rights–and no repeal to DADT, soldiers would be LYING on a Federal level about their marital status. REQUIRED to LIE. Now THERE’s a tangled mess…

      Reply
      • 42. Mykelb  |  February 4, 2010 at 9:37 am

        Can’t you just get married in DC? That is not a State and is federal territory. If you marry in DC, doesn’t that over-ride DOMA? I cannot wait until people start marrying here and then SUE the FEDS for equal protection.

        Reply
    • 43. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 3:30 pm

      Thank you, Alyson! My first husband made me keep our relationship a secret because I was in the Navy at the time, and would have lost my job. And you are so right. Our military families face too many stressors as it is without the additional ones you mentioned. Thank you, Thank you, Thank YOU!!!

      Reply
    • 44. Chief's Pea  |  February 3, 2010 at 4:13 pm

      I was saying exactly this in another thread. DADT repeal only secures the jobs of the GLBT military servicemen/women. It does nothing to secure the health and wellbeing (both mental and physical) of their partners.

      Also, I need to say something about being quiet and/or patiently waiting…. Sometimes, when yourlivelyhood depends on it, you HAVE to be patient and quiet. (if not quiet, then you have to remain anonymous)

      Reply
  • 45. Ed  |  February 3, 2010 at 10:28 am

    What a wonderful confluence of events- making the H8ers more publicly accountable for their words and their votes. The irony is that they will benefit from what we are doing when their own children or grandchildren come out and have an easier go of it than our elders and us-

    And thank you to the straight allies posting here- it makes each of us a little more free each time a rational straight speaks out- I guess in some ways, just as racism is really a white problem, homophobia is really a straight problem

    Reply
    • 46. fiona64  |  February 3, 2010 at 10:34 am

      Ed wrote: just as racism is really a white problem, homophobia is really a straight problem

      Yes, it is. And that is why I started talking about being an ally, and calling people out on their homophobic speech, etc. I do so rationally about 99 percent of the time; I’m human, LOL. There are some things that are not going to get a rational response, such as advocating rape of lesbians. I lack the objectivity, as someone who has been sexually assaulted, to remain completely rational on the matter.

      I truly do believe that the homophobes behind Prop 8 and similar measures will be viewed by history with the complete horror we now have for Jim Crow, the Ku Klux Clan, the Third Reich, etc. I remind myself that we are on the *right* side of justice. I remind myself that there are good, loving *real Christians* out there who are fighting against the faux Christian fundies right alongside all of us (all I have to do is remember a pastor I’d never met hugging me while I wept during a No on 8 vigil if I want a real, concrete reminder).

      I don’t want to make this a religion thing … I just want to remind everyone that Rabbi Yeshua ben Joseph (whose adviceI understood and believed even during my most active times as a Wiccan) taught that we should do certain things: feed the hungry, comfort the afflicted (the ill), and love our neighbors as ourselves. That so many fundamentalist churches have lost track of this simple advice (and do none of these things) is no reason for the rest of us to stop feeding the hungry, comforting the afflicted and loving one another. Heck, you don’t have to be Christian to do those things.

      Love,
      Fiona

      Reply
    • 47. Ronnie  |  February 3, 2010 at 2:18 pm

      This is what we need to do! Most of these statements were made prior integration and AA rights, prior to Brown v. Board: Like it is repeatedly say the parallels are uncanny.

      Reply
  • 48. Ozymandias ('cause it's cooler than 'Elbert')  |  February 3, 2010 at 10:30 am

    Rick,

    You’re exactly right – people like Tony Perkins just keep rattling off their ‘talking points’ and refuse to budge no matter how much their viewpoint is trashed. It’s ridiculous, but unfortunately as we’ve seen, it has a tendency to work.

    That’s why I think it’s very impressive that these interviews have been aired on nation-wide TV – the far-right fringe won’t care about anything other than their own views, but there’s a LARGE segment of Americans who, when given the choice of two viewpoints, will generally gravitate toward the one backed up with more actual EVIDENCE and less of the ‘might, could, maybe’ arguments that are nothing more than conjecture – and in the case of Tony Perkins, aren’t even realistic conjecture.

    There is another aspect of the importance of overturning DADT in relation to Marriage Equality – in American society, the military has a position of tremendous respect… Americans seeing LGBT soldiers living openly, yet serving in the Armed Forces with distinction and honor will cause a LOT of people to rethink their stands on LGBT rights here (at least, all those folks in the ‘movable middle’ category).

    Love,

    Ozy

    Reply
    • 49. JonT  |  February 3, 2010 at 12:09 pm

      “…Americans seeing LGBT soldiers living openly, yet serving in the Armed Forces with distinction and honor will cause a LOT of people to rethink their stands on LGBT rights here (at least, all those folks in the ‘movable middle’ category).”

      That’s exactly what they are afraid of. :)

      Reply
    • 50. rick jacobs  |  February 3, 2010 at 11:09 pm

      Thanks for what you say and for caring so much. It’s up to each of us to get the message out. Everyday.

      Rick.

      Reply
      • 51. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 4, 2010 at 4:45 am

        And here in Cumberland County, North Carolina, I am trying to get the message out, Rick. And I refuse to give up the fight now.

        Reply
  • 52. FlexSF  |  February 3, 2010 at 10:39 am

    It is crystal clear who the real perverts are; religious bigots who support homophobia. They need to sexualize everything. Tony Perkins projects a naked shower scene. “Mr. Perkins recalled having showered together with 80 men while he was in the military and said he’d feel threatened by a gay man showering there with him.” If any man has a problem showering with another man it is because he is insecure with his own naked body. It doesn’t have anything to do with homosexuality. Straight, and gay men shower everyday, and it is a non-issue!

    Reply
    • 53. Felyx  |  February 3, 2010 at 10:48 am

      There is a theory that some ( a few) men feel very comfortable with being ‘sexual agressors or predators’ (think womanizers, rapists and child-abusers would-be and actual) but that such men feel very threatened when they think that they may be the target.

      Hmmm….any comment Mr. Perkins?….no?

      Reply
    • 54. Happy  |  February 3, 2010 at 10:57 am

      Seriously! I hated group showers in jr. high/high school – a time at which I did not yet know my sexuality, but would have said I was straight for lack of experience and sheer denial (even though my older brother and sister constantly referred to me as a lesbian since I was 6 years old – hello!).

      Anyway, I hated group showers at that age (and still would) because I didn’t have a positive self/body image and was embarassed by my own nudity, not because I thought there was some lesbian lurking about waiting to catch a glimpse.

      In fact, we were pretty sure our gym teacher WAS a lesbian, but it never occured to me to worry about whether she was looking at me or not! I was just pissed that she made me undress in front of everyone!

      Point: I’d say narcissism is a spot-on accurate description of shower-phobes!

      Get over yourselves!

      Reply
      • 55. Ronnie  |  February 3, 2010 at 11:09 am

        My kindergarden Teacher was a Transexual(MTF)

        She was a class A teacher, She taught cursive writing as well as regular writing…How many 5yo you know can write their full name and “its a small world” in cursive, verbatim?

        Reply
  • 56. David Kimble  |  February 3, 2010 at 10:43 am

    I wanted to make a comment about something I saw on another post, but was afraid it wouldn’t be seen. There are those at this website, like George, who hold a different view of the world than do we. I think it actually good they are coming here to read about our outrage and disgust for what has been done to our community; I say that because I am hoping it will give them some semblance to the facts in this case and how inane their arguments really are.
    Love,
    David

    Reply
    • 57. Felyx  |  February 3, 2010 at 10:50 am

      I would add that some of the more ‘negative’ posts also serve to educate those moderates who may not be aware that such ‘extreme’ viewpoints exist.

      Reply
      • 58. Felyx  |  February 3, 2010 at 10:57 am

        On a ‘totally unrelated’ matter….on a thread that will most likely be preserved…

        Fiona….you are so my Wiccan mother!!! If I haven’t said it before, the spirit shines through, the intelligence, key, I love you, so mote it be!

        :`)

        Reply
      • 59. fiona64  |  February 3, 2010 at 11:00 am

        And so it is. Love you back, Felyx. :-)

        MM,
        Fiona

        Reply
  • 60. Ed  |  February 3, 2010 at 10:58 am

    Fiona,

    Thank you so much for your comments and for sharing the pain that you have experienced with sexual assault. I am so sorry that has happened to you- it will be something I keep in mind when needing to confront someone about bullying (sexual assault is bullying taken close to its worst possible form) or even sexual harassment. (I do those things as part of what I have to do in my job- but I also believe that they need to be confronted even in small forms outside the official job roles). I am also copying down the words of Rabbi Yeshua ben Joseph- when I was raised in the Catholic Church, I believed those words were the core of our purpose- I still believe it and recognize that the Catholic Church is so caught in its own fears and politics that it cannot be a safe vessel for those teachings any more.

    Love,

    Ed

    Ed

    Reply
    • 61. Marlene Bomer  |  February 3, 2010 at 3:07 pm

      Well, Ed… remember that the Catholic Church always has been a dictatorship.

      Unlike most Protestant sects, the ministers are never accountable to a board or the congregation as a whole. Otherwise the pedophile scandal, which is still a PR disaster, would have never been allowed to fester as it did!

      Unfortunately, the royalty in Rome sees the congregations as nothing more than money machines, which in turn dictates families have large numbers of children, so that they in turn can donate money… it’s an insidious circle.

      This is NOT an attack on the parishoners, but the bishops, archbishops, cardinals and popes who hold the people in an ever-tightening iron grip of oppression.

      Reply
    • 62. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 3:39 pm

      And Ed, remember also those who have been raped (molestation is merely a polite-sounding euphamism for rape) by a parental figure, especially those of us who had that inflicted upon us in an attempt to “turn us straight.” Allthat did for me was make me question my worth as a human being. I had a manager at a fast food joint I worked for ask me repeatedly one evening as she was given me a ride home (i was recovering from a broken wrist and could not ride my bicycle at the time) what she would have to do to make me straight. I reported her to her supervisor for the sexual harassment, and even though they transferred her to a different store within the franchise, I was made to suffer after that, as if I were the one who sexually harrassed her! But at least i stood up for myself, which I could not do when my adoptive “father” rape me repeatedly during my childhood. We did not have the protections for children in the late 60’s and early 70’s that we have now.

      Reply
      • 63. Ed-M  |  February 4, 2010 at 2:26 pm

        Richard, I’m so sorry your adoptive father did that to you! If only the protections in place now were in place then. :’-(

        Reply
  • 64. Felyx  |  February 3, 2010 at 11:23 am

    I feel like cheering! IT’S THE DECADE OF THE GAYS!!

    By the time P8 gets to SCOTUS, the issues of DADT will be deeply ingrained in the public consiousness. Gay marriages will be permanently institutionalized in America-albeit in select places. Hate crimes will be illegal, and sad to think it, but one might make national headlines before long; especially considering they now HAVE to be recognized and will receive federal support. (More support, more recognition!)

    Congressional DOMA is being contradicted by DC Marriage ammendment leaving the law on seriously shaky grounds…challenges are coming right and left….It will take an act of Reich-Wing(-ding) GOD to stop us!!!

    (Yeah for us!)

    Reply
    • 65. David Kimble  |  February 3, 2010 at 11:27 am

      “By the time P8 gets to SCOTUS”,
      I don’t know, this trial could make a fast-track to SCOTUS, just recall how other matters have done so in the past. If Prop8 loses at this leve and also at the next level, they may want to fast-track it to SCOTUS feeling they have enough votes there to uphold Prop8.

      Reply
      • 66. Felyx  |  February 3, 2010 at 12:18 pm

        Nothing fast tracks to SCOTUS.

        The almight SCrOTUS determines all.

        All Hail The SCrOTUS!!!

        Sarcasm and humor aside….IMHO, the sooner it gets there the better. I am basing my opinion on the feeling that we will win and that a positive SCOTUS ruling will overturn all state DOMAs. If we lose it will probably not get there at all. Regardless of the 9th circuit ruling, a petition or a certiority means nothing….it will get there when it gets there IF it gets there.

        Reply
      • 67. Alan E.  |  February 3, 2010 at 1:22 pm

        Olsen and Boies predict that it won’t be until Fall 2011 until it would be taken up by SCOTUS.

        Reply
      • 68. Ed-M  |  February 4, 2010 at 2:32 pm

        Before it gets there (late 2011) I hope Justice Scalia finds that he needs to retire and does so. That would guarantee victory for us! And no, I am not wishing bad health or another kind of tragedy on him, his family or any of his friends, acquaintances, subordinates or coworkers.

        Reply
    • 69. Lo  |  February 3, 2010 at 2:04 pm

      Thats right! And I wanted to add to your comment by saying what I posed above in a comment:

      Speaking of repealing DOMA… the works for this are already in process through the RFMA bill, RESPECT FOR MARRIAGE ACT, that has been introduced in the House of Reps. Major issues like DADT in the process of repeal, Prop 8 trial, and DC gay marriage, will hopefully make it easier for this bill to become enacted. Here are 2 links to tell you more about this bill:
      From Wikipedia:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect_for_Marriage_Act
      From HRC:
      http://www.hrc.org/13530.htm

      Although it is a step short of what we want, meaning having all states recognize our marriage, it is a good step forward towards the ultimate goal. My hope is that with all that’s going on this can take effect sooner than later.

      Reply
  • 70. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 11:24 am

    Oh, really! Having openly gay men and women in the military would hurt us in a time of war. As Larry so eloquently put it, “BOVINUS TURDUS!” My first husband was openly gay, served in the Marine Corps during Vietnam, and was highly decorated. And nobody in his unit had any problem with his sexual orientation. There was full unit cohesion, and total respect. That is what is lacking today–respect. Nobody is going to be approached for sexual activity by a gay man or a gay woman. Most of us who are fighting for the right to serve openlyin the military already have husbands and wives, and if we are in the shower with you, it is more than likely because the time our schedule allows us to take a shower just happens to mesh with yours. I spent 12.5 years in prison, and the ones like Tony Perkins were the ones i had to watch out for when I took a shower. I had to make sure they weren’t in the dormitory at the time, or else they would be in the shower with me trying to coerce me into having sex with them. That is what Mr. Perkins is REALLY afraid of. He is so afraid thast if gays are allowed to serve openly i the military, he will be caught out because he will go in the shower and proposition a gay man.

    Reply
    • 71. Ed-M  |  February 4, 2010 at 2:50 pm

      I was propositioned by that kind of sexually insecure man once in high school in the locker room at the end of phys-ed class. This was when I was not out, even to myself (I was in denial). I was lucky, in that I shut him down with one sharp imperative: “Put that thing away!”

      Maybe that’s what Tony Perkins is REALLY afraid of: that a gay man would reject his advances! :D

      Reply
  • 72. Kyle  |  February 3, 2010 at 11:24 am

    “we might have to return to the draft”

    Yes, and it will all be the fault of those pesky homosexuals. Because gosh darnit, what is the american military going to do if bigots and homophones don’t enlist? who will protect us from the Eye-ranians? They will invade and we will no one to fight them, all because we let gays in the military stop lieing about who they are…

    Reply
  • 73. waxr  |  February 3, 2010 at 11:24 am

    This is off topic, but I just viewed Day 1, Chapter three of the marriage trial video. This video includes the testimony of Kristin Perry. It is a must see.
    http://marriagetrial.com/

    I am disappointed at the low number of viewers to date. According to YouTube, chapter 1 has 2700+ viewers to date, and chapter 2, has only 675 viewers. That is not enough to make the project worth while.

    Reply
    • 74. Felyx  |  February 3, 2010 at 11:31 am

      Give it time….also remember that the video is long and there are multiple sites hosting the video. It is alot for the casual consumer to want to sit through. From that point of view…if chapter 1 has has 2700+ viewers that sat through an hour of unexciting trial testamony then that means there is some real support out there! (Imagine getting that many viewers to watch the Microsoft copyright dispute.)

      Reply
      • 75. dieter  |  February 3, 2010 at 4:20 pm

        yes alot of what seems to be low viewing numbers is the fact that it is so big, the video is on thousands of different sites.and on their home page not on youtube at marriagetrial.com
        I yahoo searched this video and 225,000 results came up.

        Reply
    • 76. R Lavigueur  |  February 3, 2010 at 12:01 pm

      As of now, those numbers have increased to:
      Chapter 1: 10,700
      Chapter 2: 2,700
      Chapter 3: 314

      These things take time, but the huge increase in the hours between just these two comments are promising that the videos are starting to spread to more people.

      Reply
    • 77. Andrea  |  February 3, 2010 at 12:05 pm

      From YouTube, 12:03 PM PST:

      Prop 8 Trial Re-enactment, Day 1 Chapter 3
      314 views – 15 hours ago

      KNBC – February 1, 2010
      675 views – 1 day ago

      Prop 8 Trial Re-enactment, Day 1 Chapter 2
      2,738 views – 1 day ago

      Prop 8 Trial Re-enactment, Day 1 Chapter 1
      10,736 views – 3 days ago

      Prop 8 Trial Re-enactment Promotional Trailer
      15,408 views – 1 week ago

      Reply
      • 78. dieter  |  February 3, 2010 at 4:21 pm

        also look at the subscription numbers..last week they had 8.
        now they have nearly 500 subscribers, and are the 52’d most subscribed this month and climbing by the hour.
        these are long videos, and the numbers will grow exponentially as subscribers get the time to view them, and share them.

        Reply
  • 79. Dave  |  February 3, 2010 at 11:34 am

    And to make your week just a little better, retired Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Colin Powell has announced that be believes it is time to get rid of DADT.

    http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/03/powell-favors-repeal-of-dont-ask-dont-tell/?hp

    Reply
    • 80. rpx  |  February 3, 2010 at 2:20 pm

      SWEET! I have always admired Colin Powel and I am glad to see he has finally come to hsi senses. The times they are a changing.

      Reply
    • 81. waxr  |  February 3, 2010 at 4:50 pm

      That’s a switch. When President Clinton announced his plans to permit gays and lesbians to openly serve in the military, Colin Powell defied his Commander and Chief by going on TV and announcing his opposition to it. Powell pointed out that 75 per cent of servicemen were against it (the same percentage who were opposed to Truman’s 1949 order to integrate the military.) Powell distinguished between racism and discrimination against gays by saying one is in reference to skin color, while the other is about behavior. He didn’t state what it was about gay and lesbian behavior he did not like.

      Clinton should have fired him that day.

      NOW Powell says, “The principal issue has always been the effectiveness of the Armed Forces and order and discipline in the ranks.” He said that before, but was unable to name any country in which permitting gays to openly serve in the military had had any negative effect.

      Reply
  • 82. Steph  |  February 3, 2010 at 11:43 am

    To summarize, Mr. Perkins thinks our straight soldiers are a bunch of UNPATRIOTIC DESERTERS that would abandon our country over something that amounts to a Human Resources issue (i.e. enforcement of equal opportunity employment).

    Certainly an unusual way to show respect for our troops.

    Reply
  • 83. kim  |  February 3, 2010 at 11:45 am

    if anyone is undermining unit cohesion, it is perkins and the ilk of their side that does that by fuelling hatred and homophobia.

    Reply
    • 84. Marlene Bomer  |  February 3, 2010 at 3:10 pm

      Not to mention an infiltration of American Taliban in the Chaplaincy, who have already shown their intolerance for anyone other than evangelicals in the ranks.

      Reply
      • 85. fiona64  |  February 3, 2010 at 3:14 pm

        Heck, the Wiccans at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs finally got their own worship area (after asking for several years, and every other group having one) two weeks ago, and went outside yesterday for Imbolc to find that someone had erected a giant cross made of railroad ties in the middle of it. If someone had spraypainted a swastika on the campus synagogue, the leadership would have done something about it; instead, they just rolled their eyes.

        http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-na-wicca3-2010feb03,0,3367750.story

        Reply
      • 86. Felyx  |  February 3, 2010 at 3:30 pm

        I hope they decorated it with Wiccan paraphernalia and left it there that way!!!

        Think of all the pissed off Christ-on-a-cross-ers!

        Reply
      • 87. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 3:46 pm

        Fiona, tell me tha SOMEBODY had enough brains, common sense, decency, and outrage to look for the perpetrators of this desecration! This is a shanda! But then again, I guess t was probably a bunch of idiots who claim to be Christians but who really are not.

        Reply
      • 88. fiona64  |  February 3, 2010 at 3:54 pm

        From what I have read on various sources, the lay chaplain/circle leader went to the Academy leadership about the matter and they basically declined to investigate.

        Remember, the Air Force Academy has been up to its backside in alligators for all of its Dominionist activities, so it doesn’t surprise me.

        Reply
      • 89. Felyx  |  February 3, 2010 at 4:01 pm

        Maybe the Circle can go to one of the other holy places?…The sanctification ceremony of the circle might make the place holy….like in a spiritual way and not just in name only.

        Just a hopeful suggestion.

        (I never realized Jesus liked to wage turf wars!)

        Reply
  • 90. Ronnie  |  February 3, 2010 at 12:01 pm

    I don’t know if this is possible but can’t the just so “Ya Done!”

    Can’t they just say if you leave or refuse to serve you are a deserter and a traitor and sentence them to death like they use to..didn’t they do that?

    I know they did during the rev.war and civ. war.

    and by “you” i mean those who refuse to serve with openly gay service members.

    Not that that is what they should do, but I’m sure it would scare people into doing their job instead of betching.

    Reply
    • 91. Tom B.  |  February 3, 2010 at 4:09 pm

      Technically, if you are a deserter, they can drag you back in if they find you and either force you to serve out your enlisted term or they can give you the dreaded Big Chicken Dinner (BCD = Bad Conduct Discharge = what is usually known as a Dishonorable Discharge), as well as hard time in Leavenworth for desertion.

      Reply
  • 92. Ronnie  |  February 3, 2010 at 12:20 pm

    This is why DADT is going to be repealed and any actions such as this criminalized!

    Reply
    • 93. slsmith66  |  February 3, 2010 at 2:28 pm

      Very moving video!

      Reply
    • 94. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 3:56 pm

      Bravo, Ronnie! Thank you for posting this!

      Reply
      • 95. Ronnie  |  February 3, 2010 at 4:05 pm

        you are certainly welcome

        Reply
  • 96. Ronnie  |  February 3, 2010 at 12:23 pm

    And here is the Movie Trailer (very close to home film!)

    Reply
    • 97. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 5:17 pm

      Ronnie, do you happen to know where I can find the DVD?

      Reply
      • 98. Ronnie  |  February 3, 2010 at 5:26 pm

        -It’s backorder on borders.com
        -It’s on the website for tlavideo.com but i think it might be backorder there too.
        -I’m pretty sure you can get on bestbuy.com and fye.com

        Reply
      • 99. Chief's Pea  |  February 3, 2010 at 6:16 pm

        Richard……… Here ya go……

        http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=6403701

        Reply
      • 100. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 6:21 pm

        Thank you Ronnie!

        Reply
      • 101. Ronnie  |  February 3, 2010 at 6:27 pm

        no prob…it’s a really good movie…but towards the end it makes you want to hit something…so be prepped.

        Reply
      • 102. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 6:53 pm

        Thank you Ronnie and Chief’s Pea. You guys rock! That is what I love about this site! We all get along (well, except for Kay/Team George, but then, they aren’t exactly the brightest CFL’s in the box), and we all share so much that helps so many. This is truly a community here, and I am glad we have the FB page. One way or another, we HAVE to keep this community alive and thriving.

        Reply
      • 103. Ronnie  |  February 3, 2010 at 6:56 pm

        Most Def……. ; )

        Reply
      • 104. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 7:31 pm

        Don’t worry, Ronnie. Just like any gay man worth his salt, I have plenty of useless, cheap (read curb alert finds!) crockery to throw when I need to. And I do have a place where I can go and scream my fool head off. I guess that is one of the benefits of being the fagelah rebitizen fr the LGBT Jewish community sparsley scattered across two states in the “Bible belt.” Or should they call this “Bigotsville?”

        Reply
      • 105. Ronnie  |  February 3, 2010 at 8:07 pm

        “Bigotsville” is good but i prefer to call the bible belt, the” Kingdom of Never Peace”….after all most of the states associated with the bible belt are located in Hurricane/Tornado Alley.

        Reply
  • 106. Bill  |  February 3, 2010 at 1:15 pm

    I wonder what it’s like to be a Tony Perkins or a Ron Prentice…

    To be the type of man whose only positive impact on this planet will be their eternal exit from it…

    Reply
    • 107. fiona64  |  February 3, 2010 at 1:22 pm

      “Everyone brings pleasure to your life; some people when they come into it, and others when they leave it.” — Oscar Fingal Wilde

      Reply
      • 108. Andrew  |  February 3, 2010 at 7:18 pm

        LOL! Fiona, I can’t express how much I love reading your posts. You are a font of tremendous wisdom, blessed inspiration, civilized gentility, humbling experience, and dazzling humor. You can make me cry, laugh, and think.
        Thank you for standing up for us. It really helps me to know we are not in this fight by ourselves.

        Reply
      • 109. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 7:33 pm

        And you, fiona, fall into the first category with me. So please, don’t leave anytime soon!

        Reply
      • 110. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 7:35 pm

        And fiona, your brother-in-law the rabbi said that for all of those people who either need to wise up or make their eternal exit, he will deliver their eulogy for them, free of charge!

        Reply
      • 111. fiona64  |  February 4, 2010 at 9:08 am

        Thanks, everyone, for your kind words. They are particularly needed today. My husband and I have been struggling financially (I was laid off twice in 12 months a couple of years ago, and we still have never really recovered from that — plus, like so many people, when I got back to work it was at a 30 percent paycut from what I had previously earned), and when I did the taxes today I discovered that he messed up his withholding and we have to pay — with money that, obviously, we don’t have. I’m just sitting here in tears, wondering how the hell we are ever going to climb out of the hole when I have to put the damned taxes on a credit card. :-(

        Love,
        Fiona

        Reply
      • 112. Ronnie  |  February 4, 2010 at 10:29 am

        I know how you feel fiona…I don’t have a steady job, i mean I deal….all I have is a little home singer machine so i have to turn down business but I will be getting an industrial sewing machine at the end of the summer so I will be able to pick up business.

        Reply
    • 113. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 8:24 pm

      That must surely be a sad, trifling, pretense of a life.

      Reply
  • 114. Richard W. Fitch  |  February 3, 2010 at 1:41 pm

    If one is forced to choose between the America of Tony Perkins or Dan Choi, how can it take more than half a heart beat??

    Reply
  • 115. Radagast  |  February 3, 2010 at 2:18 pm

    Did they happen to mention that, when the UK’s forces were integrated 10 years ago, almost none of the soldiers who had threatened to quit had actually done so?

    It’s one thing to put a theoretical to someone, it’s another to have them actually walk the walk. Mr. Perkins is grasping at every straw he can – soon enough he’ll find they can’t support his weight.

    Reply
    • 116. Ronnie  |  February 3, 2010 at 2:26 pm

      Mr. Perkins!……when you grasp at dry straw all you end up with is a shallow bale of hay that will go up in smoke…..BWAAAAA!!!!!!

      Reply
    • 117. waxr  |  February 3, 2010 at 8:07 pm

      The only reason the US banned gays and lesbians from the military to begin with, was that in World War II the UK insisted on it. Now the UK permits gays and lesbians, but the US is still discriminating against them.

      Reply
  • 118. slsmith66  |  February 3, 2010 at 2:31 pm

    Why do I feel like its going to take several years to get DADT put in the closet? Now how much money are the churchs going to put into keeping it in place?

    Reply
  • 119. Ronnie  |  February 3, 2010 at 3:46 pm

    He would not even know if his parter dies!

    Reply
    • 120. David Kimble  |  February 3, 2010 at 4:57 pm

      Wow, that one made me cry!
      Love,
      David

      Reply
      • 121. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 6:56 pm

        Thank you David. And the worst part of it is not only what the hidden spouses go through, but what about the couples’ friends, who also have to hide, simply because they do not want to jeopardize their friends’ careers? What do they go through?

        Reply
    • 122. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 5:22 pm

      I thought this was wrong in 1981 when I had to hide my relationship with Joe, and I think it is wrong now! Dammit, this “bovinus turdus” has got to stop! As hard as the soldiers’, sailors’, marines’ and airmen’s jobs are, the family left behind have an even harder job, and they deserve to be recognized and saluted also!

      Reply
      • 123. David Kimble  |  February 3, 2010 at 6:07 pm

        Agreed Richard and I am certain for you and others like you, it cannot happen fast enough. When I lived in Seattle, I had friends, one was in the military and the other was civilian and the things they had to do, just to not be suspected of being gay were atrocious.
        Love,
        David

        Reply
  • 124. Tom  |  February 3, 2010 at 3:53 pm

    What a lot of rubbish! The military will collapse if gays are allowed to serve openly? What is that person talking about?

    Here in the UK, gay people are allowed to serve openly and that hasn’t been a problem – why should it be the case in the US?

    Surely a desire to serve your country and put your life on the line on a daily basis is qualification enough, without having to be either heterosexual or closeted.

    Reply
  • 125. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 4:12 pm

    And to top it all off, we have a senator who, as a POW, sold all of our troops in Vietnam down the river after being in confinement only four days, and he wants to claim that allowing men and women to be HONEST about who they are, and who they are married to, would disrupt the military!?! Give it a rest, McCain! Even your own daughter said the GOPukes need to get their heads out of their rear ends and join the real world! I say we elect Meghan to her dad’s senate seat!

    Reply
  • 126. David Kimble  |  February 3, 2010 at 4:27 pm

    “Moral cowardice is not a quality to which I aspire.” Thanks, Fiona! I too find moral cowardice a repelling thought. I have been beat more than once by straight boys trying to prove their superiority and when I looked them in the eye and told them, “I will take you on – one-at-a-time”, they just laughed and then began with their baseball bats! I have many friends in life and as I age, wisdom begins to remedy my fears of being beat again. I do not relish the idea of being beat-up – the truth of the matter is that abhor violence, since it really proves nothing, except who is better at physical battles. I prefer to fight my battles with words, which can be very powerful.
    Love,
    David

    Reply
  • 127. Francis Salmeri  |  February 3, 2010 at 4:30 pm

    What can be said of this man, who for decades has been obsessed with battling homosexuality? He is compelled to try to repress homosexuality at every turn. It is truly amazing to me he has not cracked up, yet! How terribly sad and ironicly cruel for him and for us. People like him, repressed homosexuals are the most hystronic and vile oppononets of equality.

    Reply
  • 128. wodenponey  |  February 3, 2010 at 4:32 pm

    A decision by the 501c3 veterans group “American Legion” released last year in October.

    http://www.legion.org/documents/resolutions/2009f034.pdf

    District 6 of the American Legion just release 5 talking points based on the above. (released by mail to the members on 2/2/2010)
    1.) The American Legion has no position on the compatibility of homosexuals serving in the military.
    2.) The American Legion recognizes that the U.S. Military is in the highest state of up-tempo short of that experienced in World War II and as a result there is enormous stress upon the troops in the Armed Forces.
    3.) Now is not the time in to engage in a social experiment that can disrupt and potentially have serious impact on the conduct of Forces engaged in combat.
    4.) The American Legion will keep an open mind to the findings and information which results from military studies and findings.
    5.) Now is the time to support the existing policy.

    The talking points released by district 6 seem to conflict with the charter of a 501c3 in that they take a specific political position. Item 1 is good, the rest…OMG!

    Anyone with experience in not-for profit law have any insight into this?

    Anyone in legal or news needs to see the original mail, send me a note.

    Reply
    • 129. fiona64  |  February 3, 2010 at 4:42 pm

      You know, the very same arguments about “social experiments” were used against integration in the Army.

      As far as I know, each Legion post operates somewhat indepedently. For example a Legionnaire was on the news last night (in San Francisco) talking about DADT and how it was definitely time for a repeal.

      http://www.sfbaytimes.com/index.php?sec=article&article_id=8874

      Reply
      • 130. fiona64  |  February 3, 2010 at 4:42 pm

        PS — this is the post to which I referred, but I am having trouble finding yesterday’s news story. More to come.

        Reply
  • 131. fiona64  |  February 3, 2010 at 4:43 pm

    Ah. Found it: http://salem-news.com/articles/february022010/gay_uniform_tk.php

    Reply
    • 132. Wodenponey  |  February 3, 2010 at 5:10 pm

      Nice link. I like that guys position much better.

      I saw way to many good soldiers get kicked out in the early 80’s for no good reason. It would be nice to go back and clean their records.

      Being straight, the issue never bother me at the time, only when I got older and wiser did I see how wrong it was.

      Post 448 is apparently not part of district 6 (Good thing I guess)

      And yes, each post operates independently.
      That being said, #3 and #5 just have me gnashing my teeth right now…..I am going to take a long walk and calm down.

      Reply
  • 133. Ronnie  |  February 3, 2010 at 6:35 pm

    I’m sure most of you have seen the show “The LWord” well they blasted this exact situation on DADT,,,but we all know that they do ask, and they do hunt.

    My cuz was in the military and he says its all lies with DADT…He wants me to join the NAVY, and I actually would consider it if it wasn’t for DADT….I’m lucky to have him…he’s very supportive and wants equality and SSM

    So without further a-du, I bring you Tasha and Alice. Most of this is realistic(my cuz watched it and said totally) but we know it wouldn’t end like it did…YET!!!!

    Reply
  • 134. James  |  February 3, 2010 at 6:55 pm

    What is so bizare about Perkins statement if gays are allowed in the miliary we might need to bring back the draft, is that reverse is actually true.

    If we ever need to bring back the draft, DADT would have to be repealed. Think about it… if the military was ever forced to increase it’s size due to new large war and began once again drafting young men, what would stop even straight men that didn’t want to serve from saying “I’m gay” and then being dismissed?

    During Vietnam (the last period were there was a draft), their was still considerable shame attached to being gay, which prevented such actions, but that is certainly not the case anymore in many parts of the country with men under 25.

    Love,
    James

    Reply
  • 135. joanie  |  February 3, 2010 at 7:33 pm

    My only concern is weather or not it would affect how well soldiers work together. For certain training exercises they have to share a sleeping bag with another man. My biggest concern is weather or not this would bring about more lawsuits of harrasment from both sides. This would change things drastically training wise. drill sargents would have to worry about what they say to avoid complaints from Homosexual members. they would have to worry about disiplinary proceedures for if straight traininee’s hazed a homosexual trainee. perhasp the whole don’t ask don’t tell wasn’t about discrimination it was just about avoiding alot of red tape. Kind of like how seperation of church and state is supposed to no make kid’s from all different faiths feel equal.

    Reply
    • 136. joanie  |  February 3, 2010 at 7:40 pm

      just in case anyone think’s my tense is out of date where ever i say man insert man/woman. I’m sometimes forgetfull that there are more women in the actual service nowadays.

      Reply
    • 137. Ronnie  |  February 3, 2010 at 7:49 pm

      That may have been that case…but that red tape was replaced with yellow when it became a crime scene as was the case for Barry Winchill(spelling) and a whole lot of of pink(slips)…not to mention that big red “Dishonorable Discharge” that keeps them from getting a worthy job… thens the white slip of having to pay back all the green tape that was given to them for offering up their lives…but who care about honor to thy country…because Private bigot doesn’t want to share a sleeping bag with a gay man?…But its ok as long as hes a straight man…Newsflash there is still two poles in a tent bag…JMHO!!!!

      Reply
    • 138. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 7:56 pm

      Yes, but under DADT, we have seen even greater harassment of anyone who is LGBTQQI or even perceived as such. We have also seen more discharges under DADT for this than at any other time in our military’s history. And the worst part is that even more lesbians have been forced out under DADT than men. And that makes it even worse. Yes, there are training exercises in which two men (or two women) have to share sleeping bags. There will not be as much of a problem as people suspect, because we do have self-control, self-respect, and th ability to state a rational case for not wanting to share a sleeping bag with a particular individual if we are uncomfortable with that individual. And in most cases, the training officer assigning the sleeping bag teams knows his or her unit well nough to know who is a good match and who is not. The military is all about teamwork and a sense of community, so the repeal of DADT is an absolute necesity, becuse you cannot have true unity, community and teamwork without integrity, and when you have to lie about who you are just to fit in, then not only is yor own integrity destroyed, but so is the integrity of the entire structure. The repeal of DADT, and allowing LGBTQQI’s to serve openly, will restore that integrity and strengthen the teamwork, unity and sense of community to our military.

      Reply
    • 139. Felyx  |  February 3, 2010 at 7:59 pm

      Somehow the thought of an entire military force being terrified of mice…errr…men and having no ability to deal ethically and effectively with the situation would leave me with little faith in our defensive forces.

      If they (the current leadership) cannot overcome this non-combat related issue when other military forces have done so without dire consequence then this leadership needs to step down, resign and allow those who can get the job done take control!

      Reply
      • 140. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  February 3, 2010 at 8:14 pm

        Or, Felyx, perhaps they should go to the Canadians to find out how their military has handled it. After all, they have been integrated for 20 years, they should know something about how it’s done, I should think. That’s just my honest opinion, which added to $1.49 will get you a cup of coffee at McDonalds.

        Reply
    • 141. wodenponey  |  February 3, 2010 at 8:43 pm

      When I served, about 18% of my fellow soldiers where gay according to the official Army statistics.
      My personal observation about my fellow soldiers was consistent…about 1 in 6 soldiers I knew were gay.

      This had no effect on our service, except that those 18% were hunted down and fired. Those of use in the 82% did not have to look over our shoulder all the time…less stress. The 18% had the extra totally unneeded stress.

      Drill Sergent’s and soldiers use “Barracks Language”….everyone of every possible race religion and sexual orientation gets slammed…that’s the way soldiers talk. No lawsuits now about it…why would anything change…same number of gay soldiers….just some not hunted down and fired….

      Reply
    • 142. fiona64  |  February 4, 2010 at 7:05 am

      Um, Joanie? No one has to “share a sleeping bag.” Each soldier is provided with his or her own gear … which includes a sleeping bag.

      Please don’t spread lies like this.

      Love,
      Fiona (who was a DoD civilian for 16 years and has cause to know what is issued to soldiers)

      Reply
    • 143. slsmith66  |  February 4, 2010 at 9:34 am

      did Kay become joanie?

      Reply
  • 144. Ozymandias ('cause it's cooler than 'Elbert')  |  February 4, 2010 at 9:14 am

    I think there’s a big misunderstanding concerning DADT with a lot of people who support it (but are at least reasonable about it). I have heard people say ‘Why overturn it? What happens in the bedroom shouldn’t be anyone’s business!’ Naturally I agree, but DADT is not about preventing us from hurling our ‘lifestyle’ about.

    I asked someone once, ‘How many times a day do you mention your wife in casual conversation?’ He said that he didn’t know because he didn’t think about it. Exactly – he didn’t have to think about it because his relationship with his wife was universally accepted. Now, I asked him, imagine being in a place where he COULDN’T mention his marriage because his marriage could get him fired. How many conversations would he suddenly have to edit? What about conversations via e-mail with his wife, if the e-mail server was owned by the company with this policy? Going further, even if he used a 3rd-party e-mail platform, how would he feel if his monitor was facing the door to his office? What if the company had internet-monitoring software? Was there the possibility that the company could somehow ‘see’ his e-mails? What about Instant Messaging?

    Even more than that, what if you ran into a co-worker away from work with your wife by your side? How would you handle company functions, or even places where you know your co-workers go after work? What if someone ‘found out’ about your marriage and said he was supportive – how would you feel if you received instructions to reprimand that co-worker for something? Or have to give them a project that they might feel is unfair? Would the knowledge that he knew affect your dealings with him?

    He looked at me with open horror and said, ‘My God, the amount of paranoia that kind of policy would create… in every part of my dealings with my co-workers – that would exhaust me completely! Gays and Lesbians in the Armed Forces have to deal with that?’

    Every day, was my response.

    Love,

    Ozy

    Reply
    • 145. Sheryl Carver  |  February 4, 2010 at 11:06 pm

      Your response was perfection itself, Ozy!

      So many good people truly have no idea what our lives are like. I’ve been having an ongoing email discussion with my brother about why it’s important for those of us who can safely do so should be as “out” as possible. He’s a straight white male, & while he is pretty rational & liberal, he still doesn’t realize just how tough it is to be part of the LGBT minority in the US. I think (hope?) most anti-SSM/pro-DADT folks would rethink their positions if they could really hear what you said.

      Thank you!

      Love,
      Sheryl

      Reply
  • 146. slsmith66  |  February 4, 2010 at 10:32 am

    Good article on CNN today.

    http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/02/03/darrah.personal.history.gay.military.experience/index.html?hpt=Mid

    Reply
  • 147. Michelle Evans  |  February 4, 2010 at 11:36 am

    This is a very difficult thing for me to write, but I want to share a personal story concerning DADT.

    I served in the Air Force for seven years. I served honorably and did my job. I received awards and citations, and recognition for my contribution to the military during my enlistment. However, I also happen to be a transgender female. Of course at the time I served, I never spoke of this to anyone. It had been my secret since I was a child and I fully expected it to be my secret when I went to the grave.

    My best friend throughout most of my time in service was a guy named Marvin. He was about the happiest person I ever met. He always had a smile on his face, always was upbeat. It seemed that nothing could phase him. He often partook of the nightlife around the base and had no problem picking up girls. At one time I really thought he had finally found the right one and would probably get married, but in the end it didn’t happen.

    He got out of the service not long before I did. We lost touch for a while during this period, but I contacted his parents to find out where he was. His mother was very upset when I called, but wouldn’t tell me why, but she did tell me how to get a hold of Marvin, which I promptly did. Turns out he had just come out to his parents as being gay–and they didn’t like that at all! Yet Marvin was still as happy as could be, maybe even more so, because now he was finally able to live openly and honestly. My reaction to his news was, ‘Yeah, so what, you’re still my best friend.’

    The problem is that even though Marvin was being honest with me, I still was not being honest with him. There had been an incident in the Air Force where I had actually been caught once being dressed female. “Luckily” it was by someone who didn’t like me anyway, so basically no one would openly believe his story–and I was very good at vehemently denying it. But that didn’t stop the rumors.

    Not long after this occurred, Marvin and I happened to take a trip to go camping with his parents. It was a long drive to where we were meeting them and we loved to talk about all manner of things. At one point, the normally jovial Marvin turned fairly serious and I could tell he was having trouble saying what he wanted to say. He finally got it out, and he was asking me point blank if there was any truth to the rumor about myself. I recall vividly staring straight ahead at the dashboard of his car, slowly and deliberately denying it had ever happened. Knowing I could never say anything about my true nature, even to my best friend.

    Afterward, Marvin dropped the subject, as I’m sure he saw how difficult it was, and probably saw easily through my deception, understanding, as he did so well, the pain it caused me.

    A couple of years later, when Marvin and I were out of the service, and he had come out to me, even then I couldn’t speak with him about who I really was. The idea was so ingrained into me that I knew acceptance was impossible. We remained friends over the years and got together whenever we could. All this time, I hid myself from him, the one thing that was truly me.

    Then the worst happened, Marvin contracted AIDS and passed away in 1994. I was devastated by his loss. In the end his parents even refused to allow his partner of many years to attend his funeral. They still denied who their son really was.

    It wasn’t until a decade later before I finally got to the point in my own life where I finally realized that I had to transition and become fully who I have always been. With the love and compassion of my wonderful wife, Cherie, I made it through that and survived something I “knew” I could never do–finally living honestly and openly as who I am.

    Then, it was about two years ago, after full transition, surgery, everything, when it finally truly hit me about all that had happened with Marvin. Memories flooded back and I literally broke down and cried (and still do) over the fact that here was my best friend and I never came clean with him when I had the chance. I wonder at how different both of our lives could have been if we had both talked openly that afternoon in the car. I am convinced the reason he asked me about the rumors concerning myself was that he was also reaching out to me to tell me his deep, dark secret. In essence, my own desire to stay hidden forever, prevented him from also being open with me years earlier. In the end he was honest with me, but I never was with him. And now I never can be. I can literally say that this will remain the biggest regret of my entire life. I let Marvin down out of fear. It is time for people to stop living in fear.

    Reply
    • 148. fiona64  |  February 4, 2010 at 12:35 pm

      Dear Michelle:

      Thank you for your courage in sharing your story. I am so grateful that you were able to tell us, both about you and about Marvin.

      I will share, briefly, a story from my life that ties in to yours. Before I moved to CA, I had a very nice boyfriend named Sean. I was quite fond of his dad, Tony. Life intervened between Sean and me, and we only just got back in touch last year. We’re happily married to other people, he’s got kids he loves … it was great catching up. At one point, I said in an e-mail, “Please tell your dad I said hello.” Sean wrote back and said “My dad passed away a couple of years ago due to cancer. But I know he heard you say hi.”

      I suspect Marvin knows that you care, and that he forgives you.

      Love,
      Fiona

      Reply
    • 149. Bill  |  February 4, 2010 at 1:11 pm

      I do not think Marvin would say you let him down.

      When you are being hunted like an animal, a human will do what they need to in order to survive.

      Telling your story, as you did here, will ease your pain of regret and inspire others.

      Beating yourself up for doing what you had to for survival will only leave you with 2 black eyes.

      I hope that you have found peace in your life.

      Reply
  • 150. Sarah  |  February 4, 2010 at 4:50 pm

    I watched the video with McCain, and I just want to know what does he mean it has been successful?? What exactly is the problem with gays in the military? It really just makes no sense to me. If they are saying straight soldiers can’t function properly next to a gay soldier then maybe the military is not the place for a person who is distracted easily. I am young and don’t know a lot of the history behind DADT, but has there even been a trial run to see if gays and straights can function properly together in the military? So how can they really say it’s successful if they have nothing to show against?

    Reply
    • 151. fiona64  |  February 4, 2010 at 4:57 pm

      Sarah, there have always been LGB people in the military. ALWAYS. The whole problem really amounts to blaming the victims in a gay-bashing. “Well, if they hadn’t been ‘out,’ the homophobes in the unit wouldn’t have had to beat the crap out of ’em.”

      I was a DoD civilian when DADT went into effect. I had two gay soldiers reporting to me. One, who had won several prestigious awards (including being the soldier of the year in 12 western states), was drummed out of the Army within 3 days of him coming out. The other remained closeted until he mustered out.

      The idea that there were no LGB people in the service is absurd, and just goes to show how out-of-touch McCain is. If he think “it’s working” to force people to lie about who they are lest they be “outed’ and thrown out of their jobs, he is sadly mistaken.

      Love,
      Fiona

      Reply
    • 152. Ronnie  |  February 4, 2010 at 5:13 pm

      Like his daughter says, he doesn’t know. The problem is that those old guys still have in their minds that we can’t defend ourselves our handle a weapon….Mr. McClaim you need to meet me. And true it really dose make me feel safe in this country from terrorists and other militaries if our soldiers biggest fear is that Danny is going to look at him in the shower or that Gina is going to picture her naked wile on the battlefield….NEWSFLASH Danny already does he just can’t tell and trust me Gina is not thinking about beaver when bullets and bombs are going off all around her….No there hasn’t been a trial run just a whole civilian interrogations and from my cousin who is a marine they do ask, they just don’t tell that they ask….As for how can they talk about success…well they can’t… they just speculate the same way they do about marriage…McClaim said it himself, they have their own set of rules and laws, the constitution doesn’t apply to them…interesting enough though they want to take our tax money to pay for the armed forces but we can’t serve openly..I am only 25 but even I can realize that by asking LGBT soldiers, sailors, pilots and what not to lie about being LGBT due to DADT is in direct violation of the Honor Code.

      Reply
      • 153. Ronnie  |  February 4, 2010 at 5:39 pm

        My cousin isn’t Gay, but he is a retired Marine and he said that DADT is only enforced in the sense of that they follow the procedure of Dishonorable Discharge…They do ask, and they interrogate civilians who they suspect may be involved with the service member in question. How honorable right?

        Reply
    • 154. Andrea  |  February 4, 2010 at 5:23 pm

      John McCain… McCain… he’s the guy who thought it would be a good idea to give Sarah Palin the nuclear launch codes, right? I eagerly await his oh-so-inspired judgement on the next major military issue of the day.

      Reply
  • 155. ace  |  February 4, 2010 at 8:46 pm

    The armed forces need tight knit groups and don’t want one soldier ever wondering if the gay behind him checking him out or watching his back even for a split second. the army needs them to trust each other seamlessly and they might get along and not hate each other and function very well together in non combat but under the stress of battle their can be no questioning of teammates. it has more to do with everyone else’s opinions of the gay individual in the group. just thought i would give a little of the other side.

    Reply
    • 156. wodenponey  |  February 4, 2010 at 9:51 pm

      If the guy next to me could keep his cool under fire, I never cared what his skin color, sexual orientation or gender was.

      I am guessing you have never run in a military PT formation behind a woman soldier? Or been the Woman soldier in a PT formation?

      You argument is based on your personal homophobia, and looks at the world from a homophobic point of view.

      The issue is not gays in the military, it is homophobes.

      This is from a straight veteran who spent 4 years in active duty with a unit that took 11% Killed in action. Your argument is meaningless. I never had an issue with being in combat with a gay, I had an issue with being in combat with people who could not function under stress, and people always surprised me with the ones who became useless under fire and the ones who could keep their cool. Gay, black white, male, female, Asian whatever…there was no rule that said who could perform under fire and who could not.

      Reply
    • 157. fiona64  |  February 5, 2010 at 6:47 am

      You know, this is just laughable. “I don’t want some gay guy looking at me, so throw him out of the Army so that I don’t have to deal with it.”

      I hope you get counseling for your prejudices. Seriously.

      Love,
      Fiona (who was a DoD civilian and completely agrees with Wodenponey’s assessment. Good soldiers get thrown out because of homophobic narcissists who think that their mere presence creates a turn-on to a gay or lesbian person.)

      Reply
    • 158. Ozymandias ('cause it's cooler than 'Elbert')  |  February 5, 2010 at 3:10 pm

      Ace, your comment boils down to ‘A soldier who thinks another soldier is checking him out will freak and unit cohesion will shatter like a pane of glass in a shooting gallery’.

      I disagree – the U.S. Armed Forces is trained to maintain professionalism and unit cohesion UNDER FIRE – it’s ridiculous to think that a unit could remain cool when being fired on, but would fall apart because of ‘the gays’?

      Besides, there is more and more testimony that matches wodenponey’s – that men and women who serve do not CARE about a soldier’s orientation – as long as they can get the job done.

      Love,

      Ozy

      Reply
  • 159. Ronnie  |  February 4, 2010 at 8:54 pm

    Yeah, nothing says trust like lying.

    Reply
  • 160. Lesbians Love Boies  |  February 8, 2010 at 8:57 am

    Didn’t the military temporarily lifted/suspended DADT during the first Persian Gulf War Enduring Freedom without incidence? There is absolutely no reason to think anything different would happen today. It’s certainly time to repeal DADT.

    Reply
  • 161. Lesbians Love Boies  |  February 15, 2010 at 6:57 pm

    It’s time to repeal Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell

    http://www.technicianonline.com/viewpoint/it-s-time-to-repeal-don-t-ask-don-t-tell-1.2154306

    Reply

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