Love Across Borders

March 19, 2010 at 8:42 am 335 comments

by Brian Leubitz

One of the more important of the 1,000+ rights of marriage under federal law is the right to bring your spouse into the country. In fact, marrying an American is even grounds for citizenship. Yet for same-sex partners, there is no right to stay in the country for your partner. Even if you are married under state law, whether in California, or in any other state that recognizes same-sex marriage, your marriage just doesn’t count. The “Defense of Marriage” Act (DOMA), a blatantly unconstitutional law, sees to that.

The easiest answer? Repeal DOMA, as President Obama pledged during the campaign. But, seeing as he has somewhat less spine as President Obama than he did as Presidential candidate Obama, that may not happen for a while. And Congress doesn’t look to be any rush to force the issue. However, it does appear that Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY) wants to at least address this single egregious miscarriage of justice in the upcoming immigration bill:

“The failure to recognize permanent partners in the application for legal permanent residency is a major concern for many Americans,” reads the letter, which was obtained by Immigration Equality. Schumer then reiterates his support for the Uniting American Families Act, which would allow U.S. citizens and green card holders to sponsor their same-sex partners for permanent residency. “I support this principle of immigration reform,” he writes, “and I am working on introducing a comprehensive package that would address this issue along with a host of immigration issues…” (The Advocate)

Of course, the question will be whether the President and the Democrats will actually fight for this provision in the immigration bill, or whether it will be just another bargaining chip that can be tossed aside.

There is simply no reason why the federal government should be ignoring legal marriages and unions to eject same-sex partners from our country. This is one legal provision that is simply too important, too heartbreaking, to cruel to let stand.

Entry filed under: Uncategorized.

Lesbian Bishop Approved by Episcopal Church History Through the Bigot Lens

335 Comments Add your own

  • 1. Monty  |  March 19, 2010 at 8:47 am

    And here I always thought DOMA stood for Denial of Marriage Act.

  • 2. Alan E.  |  March 19, 2010 at 8:54 am

    (small editorial notes)
    Sentence 3, capitalize “Yet”
    Paragraph 2, psine = spine

  • 3. dieter  |  March 19, 2010 at 9:02 am

    All gay references have been removed from immigration reform. this is apparently this guys talking point.

    there will be NO gay rights issued in the immigration reform.

  • 4. John  |  March 19, 2010 at 9:09 am

    How long before Maggie and Brian and the rest of NOM have a shit-fit over the possibility of s-s partners being allowed to immigrate?

    • 5. Evan  |  March 19, 2010 at 9:35 am

      As much as I hate that they use every advancement that our side gets to whine and fundraise, I do enjoy the fact that it sends them into a frothing crazy fit. I can only hope that it keeps them awake at night.

      • 6. John  |  March 19, 2010 at 9:41 am

        As they love to say, we don’t need (or want really want marriage), so civil unions should be just fine.

        Unless civil unions are legally recognized, in which case they must, of course, be made illegal.

  • 7. K!r!lleXXI  |  March 19, 2010 at 9:44 am

    I found myself struggling with exactly the same issue as of late… coming to the States to live with someone I’m in love with, an American citizen (I am a Russian citizen).

    I don’t get what they mean my “partners?” Fiancés or officially married same-sex partners of American citizens? If there is no marriage in the States for same-sex couples, then what are they talking about? Maybe they mean CUs and DPs?

    Anyway, we’ll be hoping for the best… As I said, this issue is not just a general gay rights issue for me… Here are some real people who want this issue to be resolved…

    –Kevyn, Russia

    • 8. Monty  |  March 19, 2010 at 9:48 am

      As I understand it, the problem is that while individual states recognize same-sex marriages, they aren’t official at the federal level because of DOMA, so they don’t count for immigration benefits (along with many other benefits).

      • 9. K!r!lleXXI  |  March 20, 2010 at 3:58 am

        I understand that, Monty.

        My question was, what’s the legislative suggestion here?
        It seems redundant if same-sex marriage is not recognized on the federal level because immigration benefits are part of the federal benefits of marriage.

        Maybe same-sex couples have to marry in one of 7 countries of the world that have instituted same-sex marriage, and only afterwards apply for American citizenship for a foreigner spouse? Basically, it means federal recognition of foreign same-sex marriages (like NY recognizes out-of-state and out-of-country same-sex marriages), without performing them on the US territory…

  • 10. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 9:57 am

    I have a simple solution…….we get married to someone of the same gender from another country and we force them to accept it….when they come for our husbands or wives like Nazis……we physically fight them…..NO JUSTICE NO PEACE!!!!!!!………<3….Ronnie

    • 11. Marius  |  March 19, 2010 at 10:18 am

      lol, thats what my bf says too=P
      <3 marius

  • 12. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 9:59 am

    I am posting the video from youtube but was linked to it from

    Posted on March 19, 2010
    Robin McGehee’s Post-Arrest Statement
    By Editors

  • 13. Scott  |  March 19, 2010 at 10:04 am

    The issue directly affects me as my partner is South African. Our plan is to marry there since we can’t here and me move to Cape Town. He would love to settle here because he wants to be an animator so Hollywood is a very logical place for him. As the immigration reform is worded now is changes the references to male/female couples to “partners” instead and defines partner as anyone over the age of 18 who is in a committed relationship with an American citizen (read H.R. 2709 on So if you are married in the Netherlands you are obviously committed partners. The partner can come to the US but the marriage won’t be recognized for any federal legal benefits although it would allow you to register as domestic partners in the states that have them and give state sponsored marriage rights if you settle in one of the states that has passed same-sex marriage.

    • 14. Marius  |  March 19, 2010 at 10:26 am

      OK, I’m lost… dos this mean that NOW if a SScouple whit one from the US and one from another contrey get maried in a contry its leagel they can move to the US???
      <3 Marius

      • 15. Monty  |  March 19, 2010 at 10:30 am

        Unless I’m mistaken, no. That’s why DOMA is so ridiculous (well, one of many reasons) – it doesn’t recognize any same-sex marriages, no matter what.

      • 16. Scott  |  March 19, 2010 at 10:43 am

        No they cannot right now Marius. That’s what this reform legislation would allow if it’s passed with the language it has not. No, there is no specific reference to same-sex couples or GLBTQ people (which shouldn’t be necessary but is always troublesome here because it leaves things open to interpretation) any logical sane person reading this (and it’s been stated that is the intent) would interpret the definition of “permanent partners” (it’s not just partner as I stated earlier) to include same-sex couples, here is the language:

        The term ‘permanent partner’ means an individual 18 years of age or older who–

        ‘(A) is in a committed, intimate relationship with another individual 18 years of age or older in which both parties intend a lifelong commitment;

        ‘(B) is financially interdependent with that other individual;

        ‘(C) is not married to or in a permanent partnership with anyone other than that other individual;

        ‘(D) is unable to contract with that other individual a marriage cognizable under this Act; and

        ‘(E) is not a first, second, or third degree blood relation of that other individual.

        ‘(53) The term ‘permanent partnership’ means the relationship that exists between two permanent partners.

        ‘(54) The term ‘alien permanent partner’ means the individual in a permanent partnership who is being sponsored for a visa’.

  • 17. Josiah  |  March 19, 2010 at 10:17 am

    I have a friend who is a Chinese citizen married to an American. They had a lovely wedding a few years back in Massachusetts, but at that time did *not* get officially married (even though the state would have recognized their marriage) because they were afraid that it would threaten my Chinese friend’s immigration status. He’s a brilliant mathematician, and had a teaching position at a Boston college; his husband is a talented classical composer and conductor. They’re now living in Montreal, where they were able to marry legally without fear of consequences from immigration; my friend is on a tenure track at McGill.

    This is just one example of how our country is losing talented and brilliant people because of a prejudiced and unjust law. My friend is exactly the sort of immigrant we should be encouraging to remain in the US, but we lost him to Canada because of stupid, prejudiced laws.

    • 18. Kathleen  |  March 19, 2010 at 10:49 am

      You’re so right. There is always a cost to injustice — not just in moral currency, but in concrete dollars and cents, too.

  • 19. Bill  |  March 19, 2010 at 10:59 am

    Again, I can only ask why heterosexuals seek to abuse their gay children in this manner?

    Or ask why heterosexuals use the law so odiously and erroneously in order to abuse their gay offspring?

    Or ask what heterosexuals hope to achieve by abusing their gay children in this manner? By trying to destroy our relationships…

    Regardless of their abuse, their children are STILL gay. STILL in same-sex relationships, STILL having same-sex sex.

    So what exactly do they hope to accomplish by abusing their gay children? Does it serve ANY purpose? Does it honor ANY god or ANYTHING else?

    I mean, they can blanket this however they would like to. But it really is just a continuation of the abuse they dole out to us from childhood to death.

    They must get such a special feeling of ‘we’re better than you are’ for this treatment of their gay children.

    For try as I might, I can come up with no justification for this. Other than to destroy our relationships.

    That must be an example of that fine heterosexual morality we keep hearing them scream their heads off about…

    • 20. Melissa  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:09 am

      Well, Bill, many heterosexual couples worry about their kids getting diseases, like AIDS and syphyllis from gay sex. For all of you with religious belief in science, see:
      CDC study

      So, we think we can actually help our kids live longer if we can help them avoid such dangerous sexual activity, despite their urges.

      • 21. Monty  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:15 am

        If it weren’t for the stigma by society on their relationships, gays would likely be less promiscuous on average, which would reduce disease transmission (and it’s not like straight people are immune to those diseases). More importantly, you can’t change them. At best (or worst, depending on your point of view), you’ll psychologically torture them into a shell of their true selves, which is just as bad if not worse.

      • 22. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:17 am

        Awe……look the Hatero has returned to spread lies and harass people again….STFU up Bigot!!!!!

        Again what about our kids? What about our rights? Why are you more important then me? Why do you think you are better then me?

        Are you going to physically force your kids to not be gay or have sex of any kind since you ASSume that straight people don’t have std’s either?

        FU<K OFF SWATZY and stop harassing us….stop insulting us……..<3….Ronnie

      • 23. John  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:18 am

        You think you can help your kids live longer by making them feel ashamed, by demonizing them, and by likely driving them to substance abuse and/or suicide?

        Doesn’t sound very helpful to me.

      • 24. Bill  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:19 am


      • 25. Bill  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:22 am

        ANd what about all of the diseases cause by straight sex??? No worries there???

      • 26. John  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:23 am

        Oh silly Bill, everyone knows heterosexuals are naturally immune to STDs!

      • 27. Monty  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:25 am

        Another point: something being dangerous is not necessarily a reason to force someone not to do that thing. Automobile accidents are a significant cause of deaths. Not using a car is safer than using one. Are you going to stop your children from ever driving or riding in a car?

      • 28. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:32 am

        Like Mono, Chlamydia, BV, Gonorrhea, Herpes, PID, Trichnomoniasis, Hepatitis, Warts, Tinea Crusis, Candidiasis, Chancroid, HPV, MCV, Crabs, Scabies

        maybe all sex should be banned all together…..hence since you seem to believe that all human population is done though procreation and ignore in-vitro and surrogacy…..the human race will cease to exist….good job Melostit……I mean Meloser……I mean Melooney…..I mean Melaughable……I Melude…..I mean Melissa…..heheheheheeh…….<3….Ronnie

      • 29. Scott  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:34 am

        “WE” are you a heterosexual parent that is afraid their kids will contract something through this “dangerous sexual activity”, i.e. gay sex. News Flash, your kids can contract dangerous disease for heterosexual sex!!!! You need to educate them on the danger of unprotected sex NOT against gay sex.

      • 30. fiona64  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:35 am

        Well, Melissa, I suggest that you bone up on CDC statistics. You see, the largest growing group of HIV/AIDS patients is heterosexual women of color.

        BTW, unprotected straight sex is much more likely to cause people to be infected with syphillis, just because of population numbers.

        You’re welcome.

        Fiona (who is sick and tired of liars and panic-mongers)

      • 31. Ed-M  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:40 am

        So you would rather have your LGBTIQQ offspring to internalise what you teach them: that they are morally and sexually inferior and even unacceptable! You should realise that you’re planting a death wish within these young people. So why should you be surprised when they – and by extension we – try to “cure” ourselves, isolate ourselves from the community and lead lonely lives of quiet desperation, enter into sham heterosexual marriages, engage in unprotected promiscuous sex (even when heterosexually married), turn to tobacco, alcohol or drugs, or even commit suicide? It is because we have been carefully taught that our true selves and natures are simply not acceptable!


      • 32. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:43 am

        Not to mention, fiona64… in NJ over 80 heterosexual adults have been arrested and convicted for pedophilia of the opposite gender in the last 2 months….what does that tell you?…….<3….Ronnie

      • 33. John  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:47 am

        Obviously, Ronnie, those poor heterosexual men were driven to rape little girls by homosexuals!

      • 34. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 12:02 pm

        Here’s another notion….The CDC also says that HIV/AIDS is the leading killer of African American Women….so If Melostit believes that that should be a reason to deny people rights of marriage…..then interracial marriage should be illegal again….I don’t agree with that because My parents were interracial…but according to Melostit’s reasoning that is what should happen…..PWND…..<3…Ronnie

      • 35. dieter  |  March 19, 2010 at 12:37 pm

        hate to break this shocking news bitch,
        but your kids can get aids and syphillis from straight sex TOO.
        and are probably more at risk from straight sex, since idiots like you think aids and syphillis only attacks gay people.
        aids is spreading far faster in straight people because they think straight people don’t get it.

        Aids is a virus does not stop and ask your sexual preference before infecting you.

        why don’t you go to your local high school….and ask them to borrow a textbook on AIDS in africa…

        lol..go away. every time you post, I get diarhea.

      • 36. Bob  |  March 19, 2010 at 3:22 pm

        Hey Melissa, I see you found some more spare time, I just wanted to check cause our last conversation, I kept asking what you where afraid of, you said you weren’t afraid of anything.

        Seems however that you are, and indeed it is a fear that your children, may eventually identify with a sexual orientation other than heterosexual. You are afraid of them engaging in this behavior. But really your FEAR is STD’s, just be honest Melissa,

        You also said you were not a part of the religious right, and relied on your own common sense, I’m sorry to say, you could do some more honest analization of how much your thoughts have been directly impacted by your families history with the Catholic Church, and how much of your thinking is really not your own, but just a mimicery of ideas you have been brainwashed with.

        The best way to get children to avoid dangerous sexual activity is to dialog with them, and arm them with all the pertinent information, including the use of condoms, this bodes equally well not matter the sexual orientation of the child.

        Melissa, get real, get honest, loose your virginity to the truth, do some research which will allow you to become a truly free thinker, not a messenger for the pope, spouting off beliefs, which do nothing but insite anger, at there ignorance.

        The most impact you can have on saving the lives of your children and others is to stop projecting your fears onto others, love yourself, get educated , advocating against LGBT people does nothing to prevent STD’s.

    • 37. Ed-M  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:30 am

      @Bill: Yes, you are correct — they do this in order to detroy our relationships and deny us our love for and from one another. And why would they want to do that for? They know full well that human beings cannot survive for long, or at the very minimum cannot thrive, without love from other human beings. Even in countries where GLBT people are killed, they conceive and give birth to more of us in each generation. So they have to continually keep up the hate! Can’t they just give it a rest? Why are their superstitions so important that they have to continue to abuse us, hound us and kill us rather than accept us for who we are and go from there?

      • 38. Monty  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:33 am

        They’re afraid. Religion is naturally stagnant, so they settle into a single concrete view of the way things ARE, no exceptions. Thus, anything that threatens to change part of that threatens their whole world view, and they’re afraid to consider that they might be wrong. They’d rather ruin the lives of millions of other people than admit a mistake.

      • 39. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:39 am

        Why can’t they just ignore us like we try to ignore them? Why do people like Melostit have to actively seek us out and harass us?……Oh wait I know…… because their lives will have no meaning what so ever…..So Sad!!!!……..<3….Ronnie

  • 40. Melissa  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:13 am

    Off-topic, but the other thread I was using is getting old. I have a question: Does the homosexual community believe that pedophilia is a disorder?

    • 41. Bill  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:16 am

      I still believe you are a fucking asshole.

    • 42. John  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:18 am

      Does the heterosexual community believe that pedophilia is a disorder?

      • 43. John  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:46 am

        I just want to make it clear that my meaning was our beliefs about pedophilia are no different than the heterosexual community’s.

    • 44. Monty  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:18 am

      You ask that question with the subtlety of a sledgehammer. Yes, it is.

    • 45. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:19 am

      Do you still believe you are better then me? and deserve more rights then me while stealing my tax money you TRASH BAG!!!!

    • 46. fiona64  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:38 am

      Dear Melissa:

      You have the subtlety of a forest fire. The vast majority of pedophiles identify as heterosexual. You have far more to worry about from your minister or your scoutmaster (or even a family member) where pedophilia is concerned. It’s about *access* to kids, and has nothing to do with consenting adults wishing to marry.

      I realize that facts are pretty much anathema to people like you, but you might want to take a gander at this:

      BTW, I’m straight and I find every post of yours to be so far beyond offensive that words fail me.


      • 47. Monty  |  March 19, 2010 at 12:12 pm

        I think I like your metaphor better. Forest fires are much less subtle than sledgehammers.

      • 48. Bill  |  March 19, 2010 at 12:37 pm

        Hi Fiona,

        Melissa’s INTENTION was to offend. Her PURPOSE was to diminish others. Her GOAL was to hurt human beings.

        God LOVES that.

      • 49. Monty  |  March 19, 2010 at 12:41 pm

        Considering this same god is happy to condemn every living thing in existence to death because two people ate something he told them not to, that’s entirely possible.

      • 50. John  |  March 19, 2010 at 12:57 pm

        Now, Monty, let’s be fair. They were innocent and knew nothing of good or evil.

        So God put an evil serpent in the Garden to tempt them. Since they were innocent and knew nothing of good or evil, they knew not they were committing a horrible act by taking a bite of fruit, thereby condeming every living thing for all eternity to die. This is also the cause of all “natural” evil, meaning earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis, hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, etc.

        None of that stuff happened until Adam was tempted by the (inherently pernicious) woman who was tempted by the evil serpent. Even though evil did not yet exist in the world, because Adam’s fall brought evil into the world.

      • 51. Monty  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:04 pm

        But we also forgot the part where God “fixed” all that by killing a piece of himself in an arbitrary fashion, and deciding only people who believe all that happened would gain the benefit.

      • 52. John  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:08 pm

        Don’t forget, he came here to do it, so Judas turning traitor had to happen for his plan to work. And we’re taught that Judas has been burning in Hell for the past 2,000 years for helping God’s plan work as planned. That’s not nice. As we say in the South, “That’s just ugly, ugly behavior.”

    • 53. Scott  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:40 am

      OF COURSE WE DO! Gay people are NOT automatically pedophiles, they are COMPLETELY different things. Desiring sex with children is not healthy sexual behavior for an adult human being and is generally a result of some trauma as a child themselves. It may not be “learned” behavior in the sense that someone actually teaches them to desire sex with children and I’m not psychologist but the gay community DOES NOT condone nor practice pedophilia as an acceptable behavior.

    • 54. Ed-M  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:54 am

      Melissa, did you know that the LGBTIQQ community engages in pedophilia in far fewer numbers than would be indicated by our proportion of the population at large?

      % of the population at large that is LGBTIQQ: 5%

      % of pedophiles that are LGBTIQQ: 1% or fewer per peer reviewed studies.

      Melissa… you are PWND. <3

      • 55. K!r!lleXXI  |  March 20, 2010 at 5:30 am

        Another good video from the same guy (I’ll just post it here for others) — “Gay Marriage = Religious Freedom“:

        Thanks for linking to it here!

    • 56. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  March 19, 2010 at 4:35 pm

      Of course. And Melissa, as an adult who is a survivor of incest after my “father” discovered I am gay, I find your comment to be not only offensive, but thoroughly disgusting and filthy. Pedophilia is a disorder that involves a need to sexually attack someone who is weaker than you are in order to make yourself feel strong. Being gay and in a loving relationship involves a uniting of equals. totally different. And pedophiles do NOT care what gender their victims are, only how weak they are.

  • 57. Bill  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:24 am

    Melissa, no doubt, would call herself a ‘Christian’ and feels that she is doing important work here…

    Like I said…


    • 58. John  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:29 am

      She’s doing very important work!

      She’s demonstrating that the world is still fully of self-righteous “moralists” who demonize that which is natural and celebrate the destruction of any attempts by the LGBT community to gain equality.

      $10 she and her husband, assuming she’s married, weren’t both virgins when they married. Whatever happened to stoning unmarried women to death for having sex?

      • 59. fiona64  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:46 am

        My $10 is on her being “George.”


      • 60. Bill  |  March 19, 2010 at 12:40 pm

        If she ain’t George, she is surely his wife.

        Or husband.

  • 61. Marcus  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:31 am

    My first partner was an immigrant who legally moved to the USA as a child with his family. Due to family/cultural dynamics (and ignorance), however, his “status” was essentially hidden from him until he graduated High School (age 18). His status had expired before he even knew it was an issue and with no recourse for renewal. We were in love and committed for an entire decade, but the persistent stress and fear of deportation took its toll on us. He left me to marry a woman.

    You don’t realize just how deep and brutal the lack of immigration rights is until you experience it first-hand. Job/school applications, medical care/insurance; hell, anything that requires an ID/drivers license (e.g., night clubs, travel, …checkpoints) places you at risk. You carry anxiety over your partner’s safety at every second, and you feel intense guilt over being unable to protect the person you love. Life feels like a prison at times.

    Meanwhile, an intoxicated male/female couple acquires immigration rights in a drive-thru, shotgun wedding. That is mortifying and humiliating to me, and the feeling is only aggrivated when you hear all the horse shit propaganda about how same-sex marriage “damages the ‘sanctity’ of marriage.” What the hell?!

    A few years later, I find myself in a similar situation: in love with a sweet, caring man and powerless to protect him. I didn’t ask for proof of citizenship when we met, but who does? Love knows no boundaries.

    • 62. K!r!lleXXI  |  March 20, 2010 at 4:42 am

      Oh, Marcus!
      I so understand you!
      It’s a huge stress! I feel it!
      I hope it will not take it’s toll on me and my boyfriend.
      My sincere sympathies from Russia!

  • 63. Waxr  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:42 am

    Unfortunately, President Obama’s primary focus is on the health care bill which was his major campaign issue. If he began pushing for LBGT rights at this time, it would negatively affect the support he is getting for health reform.

    We will have to wait until the health care bill is passed, then hope that he turns his attention on gay rights issues.

    • 64. John  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:43 am

      It would appear more that Obama’s prmary focus in our regard is to keep telling us to wait and be patient . . . until he is out of office.

    • 65. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:47 am

      He has no choice….either he will….or we will force him too….They same way civil rights was forced….the same way women’s rights was forced…..the same way American freedom was forced…..the same way interracial marriage was forced…….If he doesn’t want a civil war he will best served to realize the parallels btw. the historic time lines and what is currently happening……..JMHGO….. <3…Ronnie

  • 66. Casey  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:50 am

    Well, if the concern is about LGBT kids having a higher rate of infection, please consider that lesbians have the lowest rate of HIV infection in the world. Lower, Melissa, than heterosexual people. Please be sure to tell your daughters this, so that they can remain safe.

    It also seems logical that disease prevention rests very much on education. How did we all learn about HIV and how to prevent infection? Education. Therefore, the more shame and stigma parents put on their own children for being gay, the less likely they are to seek education on how to keep themselves healthy in their relationships, and the more likely they are to find companionship in ways they can keep hidden.

    I have watched these interactions with Melissa for a few days now, and it seems clear to me that she is rather enjoying saying condescending and untrue things, then watching us get upset. She makes me angry, but more often, she makes me feel exasperated. There are numerous national and international mental health organizations that understand, as we do as members of the LGBT community, that being LGBT is something we are born with, and has no impact on our mental health, excepting when others stigmatize and abuse us. That anyone is holding onto such childish beliefs is beyond me. I pity her.

    Remember – the facts are with us. History is with us. Her great-grandchildren will be as ashamed of her beliefs as our great-grandchildren will be proud of ours.

    She does not control us.

    • 67. Bill  |  March 19, 2010 at 3:42 pm

      Melissa already knows that what you say is true.

      The words that come out of her mouth do so becasue a human being would not otherwise be able to justify such vile treatment of fellow human beings without some rhetoric to ‘justify’ it. She would feel like such a shithead for saying such things about fellow human beings, that only God could justify her cunty behavior.

      But how convenient that heterosexuals have chosen God, religion and the bible to back up their hatred.

      Except… Oops… Wait a minute….

      How come HETEROSEXUALS do not hold THEMSELVES accountable in the secualr world to biblical law? I mean, they say this is all about God, right? They’d never use that line simply to justify their hatred of their very own offspring, right???

      So if heterosexuals are so concerened with following the bible and serving God and living ‘his word’ then why oh why do we never see any ballot proposition that would enact HETEROSEXUAL biblical law in the secualr world we live in???? Anyone??? No???

      There are FAR more laws in the bible that heterosexuals are commanded to live under, and they follow exactly ZERO of them. Becasue if they did, they all be friggin’ DEAD from stoning.

      So when heterosexuals frame this issue in God and religion it is SO transparent that it makes me want to vomit. This has about as much to do with God as bubble gum.

      Heterosexuals USE God to justify their VILE treatment of their LGTB children and are foolish enough to think that they will enter the kingdom of God.

      What can one say to that, really. Doesn’t that say it all?

  • 68. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:55 am


    Posted on March 19, 2010
    Choi and Pietrangelo Plead Not Guilty
    By Editors

    “Lt. Dan Choi and Capt. Jim Pietrangelo pleaded not guilty for civil disobedience at an arraignment in Washington, D.C. on Friday.”

    (me) HELL YEAH!!!!!!……..

    “Paul Yandura, one of the organizers, told The Advocate that Dan and Jim were released from police custody. Because they pleaded not guilty, their case will go to trial in lieu of paying a $100 fine.”

    “They must return to court for a trial on April 26.”

    (me) How much do you want to bet….that D.C. is going to turn into a battlefield next month….one of the “Holy” months….how ironic……If I can go……I will be there…….<3…Ronnie

    • 69. Casey  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:59 am

      LOL – see you there if I can make it! How will they try these two?!

      “You’re convicted of not lying to your superiors in the military! Don’t you know all good soldiers lie their asses off to preserve homophobia?!”

      • 70. Waxr  |  March 19, 2010 at 8:20 pm

        Before DADT, gays and lesbians were discharged from the military for lying on their enlistment papers. Today they are discharged for not lying.

  • 71. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 12:26 pm

    Again posting from youtube but got the link from….<3…Ronnie:

    Posted on March 19, 2010
    Constance McMillen Talks to Ellen
    By Editors

    • 72. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 12:28 pm

      I like how she says….”I’m not gonna pretend to be not gay”…..RIGHT ON!!!!!!……<3…Ronnie

    • 73. Bolt  |  March 20, 2010 at 7:07 am

      No girl with girl, sexist. No girl in a tux, because if a guy wore a dress that would be bad, sexist, and gender phobic.

      Grow up adults! Children can handle these things. It is the religious lunatics that cannot!

  • 74. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 12:34 pm

    Posted on March 19, 2010
    Teens File Suit Against Ark. Adoption Law
    By Kenneth Harvey

    “On Tuesday, Pulaski County Circuit Judge Chris Piazza allowed three teenagers to join a lawsuit challenging the Arkansas law that prevents unmarried couples from fostering or adopting children,”

    (me) Told you… teens are getting in on the fight and telling the Hateros to STFU……

    “The judge ruled the teenagers, ages 15, 16 and 17, can be plaintiffs in a suit filed by the ACLU of Arkansas. The teenagers told the judge the law limits their ability to find a family.”

    (me) hmmmmmm…….

    “The teens, two of which are siblings, are in state homes because their mothers were addicted to methamphetamine.”

    (me) but kids belong with their biological parents….yeah a mother with a meth addiction is better then 2 moms or 2 dads that are civil and drug free……and yes there are gay people who are drug free….Me being one of them…..<3…Ronnie

    • 75. Monty  |  March 19, 2010 at 12:39 pm

      Hooray for drug-free gay people (and drug-free straight people like me, of course)!

      More proof that biology doesn’t mean crap when it comes to parenting.

  • 76. Melissa  |  March 19, 2010 at 12:55 pm

    My point about pedophilia was not that homosexuals are pedopohiles (as I understand it, pedophilia is not considered a gender-specific disorder). My point was that for some reason, people here believe that homosexuality is not a disorder but they believe that pedophilia is. So, we should treat the latter and accomodate the former; whereas I think we should treat both of them, in addition to trying to prevent their occurence in the first place.

    • 77. Monty  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:01 pm

      Except that homosexuality is not a disorder. Two completely different things:

      Homosexuality is about loving, consensual relationships between people who happen to have the same thing between their legs.
      Pedophilia is about control fantasies with someone who can’t stop you.

      Comparing the two is a direct insult to every gay person in the world.

      • 78. Bill  |  March 19, 2010 at 3:48 pm

        Melissa’s INTENTION is to directly insult every gay person in the world.

        That’s her GOAL.

        What else can you say about her that she doesn’t say about HERSELF every time she shows up here.

        Her intentions are clear.

        And while everyone who knows me here from day 1 knows that I am generally a respectful person to others, I guess at my age, I am no longer willing to suffer these fools and sit here while they so condescendingly insult and degrade us.

        Melissa, you are a fucking cunt, dear.

    • 79. John  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:02 pm

      For some reason?

      Homosexuality has not been regarded by the mental health and medical communities since 1973. The same is not true of pedophilia, however.

      So, for some reason, people here who know themselves and people who know that it’s been 37 years since homosexual orientation was removed from the list of mental disorders, believe that homosexuality is not a mental disorder.

      • 80. John  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:04 pm

        Let me correct myself. The second paragraph above should read:

        So, for some reason, people here who know themselves, and people who know that it’s been 37 years since homosexual orientation was removed from the list of mental disorders, KNOW that homosexuality is not a mental disorder.

    • 81. fiona64  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:04 pm

      Dear Melissa:

      Let’s talk about what you’re advocating, shall we? So-called reparative therapy doesn’t work — because there’s nothing broken to be fixed. However, it *does* cause significant harm. People with degrees in scary things pertaining to science do not think there is anything wrong with GLBT people, but understand that this is a naturally occurring variant (like being left-handed) that has occurred not only in H. Sapiens but some 1500 non-human animal species since the beginning of time.

      Again, a look at the pertinent facts may help you:

      Quote (emphasis mine):

      n 1990, the American Psychological Association stated that scientific evidence does not show that conversion therapy works and that it can do more harm than good. Changing one’s sexual orientation is not simply a matter of changing one’s sexual behavior. It would require altering one’s emotional, romantic and sexual feelings and restructuring one’s self-concept and social identity. Although some mental health providers do attempt sexual orientation conversion, others question the ethics of trying to alter through therapy a trait that is not a disorder and that is extremely important to an individual’s identity. 3

      You’re welcome (again).


      • 82. Kathleen  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:13 pm

        John and Fiona,

        It’s pointless to bring the opinions of experts into the discussion. A while back Melissa made it clear that she considers her own “common sense” knowledge of truth to be of greater value than that of experts in the relevant fields.

        As Don McLeroy, one of the leaders of the Texas Board of Education’s conservative faction, stated last year “somebody’s got to stand up to experts.”

      • 83. fiona64  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:15 pm

        Good point, Kathleen. Of course, someone whose degree is in “what some bloke said down the pub” “what my preacher said on Sundee” far outstrips those who have studied medicine, psychology, zoology, the law or (in my own case) anthropology.

        How silly of me. I keep forgetting.


      • 84. Monty  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:17 pm

        I’ve made up my mind. Stop trying to confuse me with facts.

      • 85. Bill  |  March 19, 2010 at 3:45 pm

        It is pointless.

        Melissa is one of the ruined.

    • 86. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:05 pm

      No you Hatero B!TCH……..Why would gay people belive that they were born with a disorder? Thank you again for insulting us you fu<king TRASH BAG…..I believe that your constant harassment of us is a disorder maybe we should treat your illness you trolling bigot swatzy triple K whore…..

      Why is your opinion more important them mine? I believe you have an disorder. Why is what I believe wrong and you are right?….STFU Slut…….<3….Ronnie

      • 87. Monty  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:07 pm

        She’s right because God ostensibly says so, of course.

      • 88. fiona64  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:13 pm

        “You can tell you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” — Anne Lamott


      • 89. Kathleen  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:16 pm

        @ fiona, that quote is hilarious. Thanks.

    • 90. dieter  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:08 pm

      Hey Melissa. We all truly understand that you are just a bitter person since your dad told you that you don’t have the tightest ass in your family anymore, but that is an issue you need to take up with YOUR own family. gays have nothing to do with your own shortcomings.

      and even though I think you are a disgusting PIG. I think as a caring human being that I should warn you….
      if you do not remove your head from your ass soon…you are going to suffocate.

    • 91. fiona64  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:08 pm

      You know, Melissa, if I were a gambling woman (which I’m not), I would bet that you are anti-choicepro-life.

      And yet, if you could test a fetus you were carrying and learned that it would grow up to be GLBT, you would be down at the clinic so fast that peoples’ heads would spin.

      You want to try to prevent homosexuality? Cool. How will you prevent it in the 1500+ non-human animal species that exhibit homosexuality (including our closest genetic relatives, the bonobos)? Or are you arguing that penguins, dolphins, primates and a host of others are “choosing”?

      I am really reaching the point where I think that homeschooling should be made illegal …


      • 92. John  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:10 pm

        Now, now, Fiona. Animals can be immoral and evil, too. Those fag animals are all headed straight to Animal Hell.

      • 93. fiona64  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:11 pm

        LOL, John. Why am I reminded of Eddie Izzard’s sketch about the evil giraffes?


      • 94. Monty  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:11 pm

        Homeschooling, and schools in Texas.

      • 95. Bill  |  March 19, 2010 at 3:52 pm

        Ever seen a peacock? Fuckin’ fags.

        Just sayin.’ ; )

    • 96. Dave T  |  March 19, 2010 at 3:30 pm

      Perhaps you should have expressed your point in your original point, instead of doing it in a way that implied a connection between pedophilia and homosexuality. To now claim ignorance is incredibly disingenuous – as much as we all would like to believe it, nobody here really does believe that you are that phenomenally stupid.

      I’m going to spell this out for you using simple language:

      Priest abuses altar boy – WRONG, because altar boy can’t meaningfully consent.

      Father abuses child -WRONG, because child can’t meangfully consent.

      Scout leader/teacher/youth group leader/etc. abuses minor -WRONG. I think you get the picture.

      Human sexually abuses an animal – WRONG, because, you guessed it, an animal cannot consent.

      Two adults enter into a sexual relationship – NOT WRONG. Why? Because they can consent.

      THAT is the difference between pedophilia and homosexuality.

      Is that simple enough for you to grasp?

      • 97. Bill  |  March 19, 2010 at 3:53 pm

        ” nobody here really does believe that you are that phenomenally stupid.”

        Speak for yourself., Dave. ; )

        I think she is.

        And THAT is a CHOICE.

      • 98. Melissa  |  March 19, 2010 at 4:14 pm

        So couldn’t the pedophiles just rally like the homosexuals to change the law so that consent can be given at a younger age, say, at the age of fertility? Why is that different? It’s just a matter of where you want to draw the morality line, isn’t it?

        It’s so obvious to you because you’re gay; no doubt it is just as obvious to the pedophiles that the age of consent should be lowered.

      • 99. dieter  |  March 19, 2010 at 4:20 pm

        IN several states the age of consent is as low as 13.
        In Texas it is legal to have sex with animals.

        One has to wonder why you are not complaining about THOSE things, and
        seem stuck trying to convince the world that the worlds problems are due to the gays.

        No it is clear…
        you think gays are icky and you have NO life
        so you spout ignorance to make yourself feel educated and important.
        bad failed.

      • 100. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 4:22 pm

        STFU WHORE!!!!!……..funny how this Hatero is still ignoring that there are straight people talking to her as well….saying all the same things that we are……age of consent is not a human right you fu<king idiot……….

        I swear if you don't STFU and stop comparing me to a fu<king pedophile I will contact IC3 and have you fined as a internet cyber crimes stalker………

        You're fu<king Homophobic whore…… piece of shite TRASH BAG…….FU<K OFF…….<3….Ronnie

      • 101. John  |  March 19, 2010 at 5:06 pm


        You are a VILE being. I cannot use the word human to refer to you as it would be an insult to every other human on the planet.


        I’m fairly certain the lowest age of consent anywhere in the USA is 16. It is 13 in Spain, but it was raised from 12, and that was long before same-sex marriage was legalized there.

      • 102. Bill  |  March 19, 2010 at 5:20 pm

        I bet Melissa diddles herslef while she posts here.

        Then washes her hands in holy water.

        She totally gets off on this.

      • 103. dieter  |  March 19, 2010 at 5:25 pm

        Sorry John but you are in fact wrong about the age of consent. A quick google search will enlighten you.

        some states allow even as young as 12 with parental consent.

        most states are at 16. many are at 18
        a few 14’s and 15’s in between

        some of the “16” states allow preteens to have sex and get married with parental consent.

      • 104. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  March 19, 2010 at 5:30 pm

        Actually, from the sound of it, I think “Team Kay Moore” has come back to troll with a new handle. You remember “Kay don’t you? The one that turned out to be a teenge boy with issues.

      • 105. John  |  March 19, 2010 at 5:49 pm


        Wikipedia Age of Consent page shows none lower than 16 in the USA.

        AGE OF CONSENT CHART FOR THE U.S. – 2009 also shows none lower than 16.

      • 106. dieter  |  March 19, 2010 at 7:39 pm

        John I won’t argue with, however getting your “age of consent” information from wikipedia is like getting gay marriage statistics from NOM.

        what wiki does not explain to you nor will I bother trying to explain it you, but many states have
        “parental consent” codicils that over-ride any age of consent laws.
        a few states with an age of consent set at 16 will also allow a girl younger than 16 to get married, if she is already pregnant or has already given birth.
        I would suggest doing a little more research before calling someone a liar.

        and also to expand your information gathering skills beyond that of the pages of wikipedia.
        anyways…I am done with this.
        I have personally been to at least 4 states where age of consent has been under 16…just sayin,…

      • 107. John  |  March 19, 2010 at 8:00 pm

        I know wiki’s not necessarily the best source, hence my giving two links. I found another but it was obviously out-of-date as gay sex was still listed as illegal in a number of states. I also was a bit creeped out by it ’cause something about it made me think it was a sort of guide for where you can go to legally screw the youngest kids. I didn’t look closely enough to tell but, still, it just seemed . . . not wholesome.

        Yes, there are states where people under the age of consent can be legally married, with parental approval. I’ve also done fairly extensive research on a few states where I know some younger gay folks, so I could advise them about what possible ramifications there would be under their state laws if they were caught.

        The bottom line is, age of consent, as I understand it, is the age at which you can legally have sexual relations with anyone your age or older.

        Some states wisely have laws regarding underage sex with reasonable age gaps and the like taken into consideration.

        Some states, one the other hand, just throw the book at kids. There was a notorious case in the state where I live where a just barely 17-year-old boy was caught receiving oral sex from a girl just barely shy of 16. He was offered a plea bargain, but accepting it would’ve put him on the sex-offender registry for the rest of his life. So he went to court and was convicted of aggravated sodomy. The jury was not told how harsh the penalty would be and he had definitely been caught, so they felt they had no choice. He was sentenced to 10 years in prison. Had he and the young woman been caught having intercourse, the sentence would’ve been three or four, I believe.

        The Legislature eventually changed the laws so what he was caught doing was no longer a crime. They elected to grandfather anyone already convicted however, and let them stay in jail. His name is Genarlow Wiilson, if you wanna Google him..

      • 108. fiona64  |  March 21, 2010 at 8:47 am

        Dear Melissa:

        It’s obvious to me, and I’m not gay. Your whole line of pretend disingenuousness is offensive.


    • 109. David Kimble  |  March 19, 2010 at 4:10 pm

      Melissa, Just check with any accredited Psychologist, Psychiatrist, etc. IT IS NOT A DISORDER! You really need to update your textbooks somewhat – oh I forgot, you can’t do that, since you are already endowed with bullshit! <3 David

    • 110. Bob  |  March 19, 2010 at 4:19 pm

      Melissa, remember your common sense, and just stick with that, you’re getting into a little grey area here, when you start comparing disorders, disorders are defined on scientific basis, you assured me in earlier posts that scientists and their ideas do not influence your thinking.

      But now you are comparing two behaviors in the scientific terms of disorder, way out of your common sense league.

      True enough we disagree about homosexuality being a disorder, you are entitled to your belief that it is. So you can hang onto that piece of religious dogma as long as you wish, and until you come to your senses and start to have your own original thoughts. No contest between your belief, and what I know, as a gay person.

      Your ignorance is shown in your comment that we should treat both disorders to prevent there occurance in the first place. Sweetheart, treatment only happens after the unwanted behavior occurs, and only works at diminishing that particular behavior from recurring. It does not prevent future cases from happening, now hon that’s just common sense.

      Further it’s not up to you to decided who should recieve treatment and for what, remember you don’t agree with scientific approach, bow out of that debate gracefully, err on the side of common sense, which is more befitting of you.

      With regards treatment approaches, the most common sense one is A.A. for addicts, who are not forced there but go because their life is unmanageable, from thier own evalutation.
      Not because someone forced them, this is a major point in it’s success.
      Religion could take a cue from this program, if we consider no matter what we do there is no way of knowing which people go to heaven when they die, but in the A.A. program, we do know who stays sober.
      So as far as reparative therapy, if it were true that homosexuals could be cured, the best chance of it happening would be in a program like that, and common sense also indicates that would already be happening. A.A. is based on very simple non-scientific principles. It is so successful that it has spin offs, i.e. emotions anonymous, Al Anon, the closest we get to what you’re talking about is Sex Addicts Anonymous, maybe a common sense approach for you woul be to attend a few of these meetings.
      Then you perhaps could form your own group based on it;s principles (homosexuals anonymous), this way you could actually be doing somethilng very practical in terms of providing alternatives for those who want to change their sexual orientation.
      You would do us all a favour by using your common sense approach to prove your point, and have millions of homosexuals proclaim their abstinance. You could save not only your children but the world Melissa, stop projecting your fears, and start doing something about it.

    • 111. Waxr  |  March 19, 2010 at 9:15 pm


      You are changing the subject.

      We are discussing sex between two consenting adults. Pedophilia is sex with children, which is illegal whatever your sexual orientation is.

      • 112. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  March 19, 2010 at 9:22 pm

        Melissa is good at that waxr. She (or he) is also good at obfuscation, denial, and refusal to answer questions. Sounds a lot like our two previous trolls, doesn’t it?

      • 113. Waxr  |  March 20, 2010 at 9:07 am

        Her argument is a common one, but it ignores the basic fact that children need protection from child molesters. That has nothing to do with sex between two consenting adults.

  • 114. dieter  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:17 pm

    Finally able to hack through to get Melissa’s address.
    sleep tight dear.

  • 115. fiona64  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:18 pm

    Oh, good grief.

    Richard Walter-Jernigan, my adopted brother — I just realized that your birthday came and went while I was ill and I never sent you tidings. Ugh!

    I hope that your day was splendid, and I’m sorry to be so late!


    • 116. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  March 19, 2010 at 3:09 pm

      Fiona, I have a beatiful note on FB you sent that was not only to me, but also to two others who were celebrating their birthdays that day. I am trying to find a way to download it to my printer so I can frame it. I also sent a general one out after that to everybody about it also being International Women’s Day, and you were among the reasons I love that holiday. By the way, I have a new Worpress blog, and I am hoping to catch up on it this evening or tomorrow evening. Click on my name here and you will be taken to it. It’s called A Gay in the Life. And yes, my birthday was wonderful. It got better after I found out that it was International Women’s Day. It gave me a chance to celebrate all the women in my life for being who they are, and reminding them, as I have had the chance, of just how important they are to me and to everyone else around them.

      • 117. fiona64  |  March 19, 2010 at 3:15 pm

        Oh, thank goodness. That’s how sick I was; I don’t even remember doing the note, LOL.

        I have been reading your blog; I need to set up an RSS feed to my LiveJournal so that I don’t miss anything.


  • 118. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:21 pm

    Melissa is a cyber troll…..Harassing people…..a true @$$whole……She would beat and ECT her kids….if they were gay……the would be better of getting SIDS…..that’s not right….that’s not ok….take her poor kids away…….Melissa has a mental disorder…….slap her with a restraining order…..Throw more hatero insults at me……and I will contact IC3……


    • 119. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:25 pm

      Brought to you by Ronnie Mc……proud to support the Protect ALL kids and the Equality Campaign…….Have you seen Melissa’s kids?………<3….Ronnie

      • 120. Monty  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:27 pm

        Nah, she probably sent them off to a torture chamber concentration camp reeducation facility. Yeah, that sounds good.

        Pray out the gay!

      • 121. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:28 pm

        If you have any information as to where Melissa’s kids are and if she beats them or gives them ECT, please contact

        1 – 800 – 555 – BWAA….or email……..<3….Ronnie

      • 122. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:30 pm

        hehehehe……that’s not a real link don’t click on it…..oh…..shenanigans of our moneyed opponents…..<3…Ronnie

  • 123. John  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:27 pm

    Actually, Melissa, there is one way to absolutely ensure that your child will not grow up to be a homosexual:


    No other method works.

    • 124. Monty  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:27 pm

      Silly, you can kill it before birth too.

      • 125. John  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:29 pm

        No, abortion is always wrong, no matter what. Murder is justified if God instructs it, though.

      • 126. fiona64  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:34 pm

        Just for you, John:

        The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion: When the Anti-Choice Choose


      • 127. Monty  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:35 pm

        Hypocrisy never fails to disgust me.

      • 128. John  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:39 pm

        Gah, the link is blocked at work, Fiona. I’ll check it when I’m done today.

        BUT . . .

        On a related note, if one of Obama’s daughters was the same age as Palin’s preggers brat, you can bet the Repubs would have been all over them for their bad parenting, obvious liberal immorality, etc.

        Something is only immoral if a liberal does it. If a conservative does it, it was a complex situation that no one else could possibly understand and we should not condemn.

  • 129. Monty  |  March 19, 2010 at 1:53 pm

    Quote of the day:

    “My gay friends have made me even more manly, if anything. I think all straight men who want successful relationships should have a gay advisor, because they know how to treat women.”

    • 130. Bill  |  March 19, 2010 at 5:24 pm

      Most straight men are as ‘gay’ as gay men these days.

      Seriously. Here in Los Angeles, I can’t tell us apart.

      But it is f’ing HYSTERICAL that straight guys think that being straight is what makes them a man. Or masculine. Or ‘manly.’ The TOUGHEST among them couldn’t walk a day in our shoes without crying to mommy.

      I’d call them retards, but Sarah Palin said we’re not supposed to say that anymore, so…

    • 131. Straight Dave  |  March 19, 2010 at 6:29 pm

      Ok, y’all homos out there, I need some help cause I suck at this stuff…..uhhhhh, don’t take that too literally.
      No, seriously, while I really do love and care about my wife, I seem to be all thumbs at times. There may be something to Monty’s quote. I’m wondering if it is because gay men are not burdened by seeing women as sex objects? It’s our genes getting in the way. Really, this is a serious question, though I’m making a hash of it. I think there is some genetic component of us (straight men) that is pre-programmed to see women as sex objects. Good old evolution comes to the rescue again, or none of us would be here now.

      The idea of a gay advisor strikes me as brilliant. My best gay friend died, and the next closest is the son of one of my friends and 35 years my younger. So I’m a bit short-changed in that department. Maybe I should go trolling some gay bars with a sign on my back “I’m just here for the advice”.

      This not a joke, though I seem to be stumbling into one as I struggle with my own lack of gayness. I do listen to my women friends lament that all the best looking guys are gay and all the best listeners are gay. What the hell?!?!?

      Does someone who feels fluent at this sort of thing want to be my gay advisor?


      • 132. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  March 19, 2010 at 6:32 pm

        Okay, Straight Dave, you hav our phone numbers, and hen I gave them to you and said you were free to call at any time, this was included in that invitation. You want a gay advisor, you can have two for the price of one. One who is 47, and one who will be 63 in November. So call already!♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥

      • 133. Straight Dave  |  March 19, 2010 at 7:05 pm

        Thank you Richard, I will do that.
        And I apologize for what in retrospect may appear as a slightly rude and tone-deaf message. A poor attempt at trying to inject some humor into this. Not my best day. I really do appreciate the mutual support and camaraderie of this group.

        BTW- there seems to be a hell of a lot of stuff going in GLBT-land lately. NJ suit, Choi arrested, DC victory, immigration partners, Prop 8 trial, DADT (I loved yesterday’s testimony by that stone-age General – God, did he seem uncomfortable!!!! He knew he was a lost cause but couldn’t help himself.)

      • 134. David Kimble  |  March 19, 2010 at 7:12 pm

        @Straight Dave – you are correct about a lot of stuff going on GLBT land! My head swims with all the news. I am so happy you have been befriended by this group – it’s always nice to have allies! <3 David

      • 135. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 7:15 pm

        Straight Dave….all these goings on…..its the Volcano erupting…..its the echos of civil rights, its the vibrations of women’s rights, its the after shocks of interracial marriage all clashing at the Yellowstone Caldera……BOOOOOMMMM!!!!!!!……..<3….Ronnie

      • 136. Straight Dave  |  March 19, 2010 at 7:25 pm

        It is a volcano, or maybe an earthquake. You have all that pressure built up for centuries… then watch out. I can see momentum all around. It does remind me of the 60’s. Not goin’ back to the old days. Dan Choi is Rosa Parks. Good for him. Oh, and I forgot Constance bless her heart. That’s gotta be so tough. I’ve been in Mississippi, and it’s……well, Mississippi.

      • 137. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  March 19, 2010 at 8:12 pm

        @ Straigth Dave, actually I thought your comments wee tongue-in-cheek and responded the same way. But I meant what I said about feel free to call.♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥

  • 138. Kalbo  |  March 19, 2010 at 2:03 pm

    I’ve been following this site since Day 1, but reading today’s entry really hit home for me.

    Before my binational relationship got serious, I’d never felt the sting of discrimination. Even after I came out, (most) everyone was so accepting. It seemed like no big deal.

    Fast forward to today, and I am making plans to leave the USA to be with the person I love. I hate that I am being forced to make such a choice, but the longer this goes on, the harder it is. I would regret it the rest of my life if I chose to stay here over my fiancé.

    There was a time this country stood for freedom and liberty for all, but I think that time is long gone now. I had hope after Obama was elected, but now … I am not going to wait around for the Dems to kick LGBT equality into yet another next decade.

    I’ve recently posted our story on a website,

    • 139. LoriH  |  March 19, 2010 at 2:28 pm

      Good luck. I’m playing with the same emigrating out of sheer exasperation with the quagmire of intolerance and plain stupidity that’s overrun this country. I’ve been discussing with my partner how the U.S. has come around again to a stage where, other countries have become the far more advanced in social, artistic and intellectual development.

      • 140. John  |  March 19, 2010 at 2:30 pm

        You must mean those countries that are cesspools of filth, depravity, and immorality, like Canada.

      • 141. LoriH  |  March 19, 2010 at 2:31 pm

        Shoot this thing doesn’t allow you to go back and edit. Sorry for the typos. The gist of what I want to say is: I wish you luck and happiness in your future plans and I’ve considered emigrating myself for the reasons I’ve sited.

      • 142. Bill  |  March 19, 2010 at 3:59 pm

        @ John

        I believe it’s official name is now Canada & Gomorrah. ; )

      • 143. Kalbo  |  March 20, 2010 at 12:22 pm

        @LoriH Yes, it’s sad. We’re taught growing up that this is a free nation, and how great we are, but then a few of us travel abroad and try to be with the one we love, and we discover this is all a lie … And to have these idiots vote on a group’s civil right … Appalling!

    • 144. Scott  |  March 19, 2010 at 8:22 pm

      I’m with you Kalbo. I will not sit in this country where I am treated like a second class citizen. South Africa with all it’s issues is at least progressing, our government continues to fall under those who cannot separate their religion from society and damn it! I’m tired of it.

      • 145. Kalbo  |  March 20, 2010 at 12:14 pm

        Thanks, @Scott! ^_^

    • 146. K!r!lleXXI  |  March 20, 2010 at 6:29 am

      This is a sad story, Kalbo (I’ve read it here)…

      I’m a Poknat for my Kalbo in the US… And my Kalbo still hopes he can bring me over there, to the United States of Armageddon… Your story only shows me that’s not gonna happen… just like I was afraid of all this time…

      I’m glad, though, that you found your true love — this is much more important in life! I hope you figure out how to be together! No matter what!

      • 147. Kalbo  |  March 20, 2010 at 12:10 pm

        @K!r!lleXXI: I think it will take a long time for the USA to recognize equal rights for gays. There are several cases in federal court now, and depending on how that plays out, it could well happen within 3 years. Failing that, it’s going to be a waiting game for the older folk to die out, as polls show something like 70% of the youth favor equal rights for LGBT. If there was ever a time ripe for political progress, it’s now, but I see that window closing and the so-called liberal party of the US wasting a chance to advance LGBT rights.

        It’s been tough, no doubt. I don’t know your bf’s intent or what he has in mind; I know Poknat has been discouraged as well. I feel for you. For me, if this is something that must be done, then so be it. I wish you and yours all the best!

      • 148. GAYGUY  |  March 23, 2010 at 9:11 am

        Just wanted to add my 2 pennies here. I am a VERY good friend of Scott’s so I know his story and he mine. I am also someone that has a foriegn B/F and we are having to deal with immigration issues to get him here in US so we can start our lives together. We all have to understand that we are NOT alone with this issue. We do have each other and our loved ones to help us through this…WE WILL HAVE IT HAPPEN!!

  • 149. dieter  |  March 19, 2010 at 2:42 pm

    Choi and Pietrangelo Plead Not Guilty

    By Editors

    Lt. Dan Choi and Capt. Jim Pietrangelo pleaded not guilty to charges arising from their Thursday civil disobedience action at an arraignment in Washington, D.C., on Friday.

    They two were arrested Thursday after chaining themselves to the White House gate in protest of the military’s ban on openly gay service members.

    Paul Yandura, one of the organizers, told The Advocate that Dan and Jim were released from police custody. Because they pleaded not guilty, their case will go to trial in lieu of paying a $100 fine.

    They must return to court for trial April 26.

    “I was deeply proud and honored to witness what I consider to be brave patriotism, not only to risk a deeper fine from a jury trial, but possibly time spent in jail,” said Robin McGehee, the co-founder of GetEqual, which organized Choi and Pietrangelo’s protest on Thursday.

    She was also arrested at the protest on Thursday, but was released hours later, after paying a $35 fine.

    Gearing up for the trial, McGehee said that more actions similar to the event on Thursday are in the works in Washington, the end of April with other service members and veterans.

    “Our focus is to empower the community online to take offline actions,” she said on Friday.

    • 150. David Kimble  |  March 19, 2010 at 4:11 pm

      Yea! thanx Dieter – they are my new heroes!
      <3 David

  • 151. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 2:44 pm

    I think we need a song because I’m I little herrumph….i learned this song in the 8th grade….in sign language no less….I don’t remember the signs but I remember the feeling I felt when singing it in choir…..<3….Ronnie:

    • 152. David Kimble  |  March 19, 2010 at 4:16 pm

      Thanx Ronnie – I couldn’t help but sign along with the song! Our cause is truly about love, just wish the other side of the rainbow would hear that, but they don’t – all they hear is their chanting and riling – something they are adept at using. <3 David

  • 153. dieter  |  March 19, 2010 at 2:47 pm

    for it’s neglect of it’s own citizens!!:

    U. S. Government To Conduct Consultations or “Listening Sessions” On US International Human Rights Obligations
    This is a very important opportunity for us to actually get to have a conversation with our government about our own human rights record. If you are in the Bay Area, we hope you can attend these panels moderated by NCLR Legal Director Shannon Price Minter.

    The Bancroft Hotel
    2680 Bancroft Way, Berkeley, CA 94704
    Thursday, March 25, 2010, from 8:30 AM to 12:30 PM

    Mclaren Conference Center, University of San Francisco
    2130 Fulton Street
    San Francisco, CA 94117
    Friday, March 26, 2010, from 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM

    The United Nations Human Rights Council will examine the United States’ compliance with its legally-binding obligations under its signed and ratified Human Rights treaties as well as the UN Charter and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    The process of this examination is called, “Universal Periodic Review” or “UPR”, in which the human rights compliance of every UN member state is reviewed every four years. This November will be the United States’ first review since the process’ creation

    For complete information on the events and the RSVP process please visit.

    The Council for Global Equalitybrings together international human rights activists, foreign policy experts, LGBT leaders, philanthropists and corporate officials to encourage a clearer and stronger American voice on human rights concerns impacting LGBT communities

    • 154. David Kimble  |  March 19, 2010 at 5:17 pm

      Thanx dieter, I will have to pass, but would have loved to be feeling better, so I could go! <3 David

  • 155. dieter  |  March 19, 2010 at 2:49 pm

    here is Dan Choi’s statement outside the court today:

    • 156. David Kimble  |  March 19, 2010 at 4:34 pm

      I would say he got it right! He is a remarkable person going through all of this, just so we can still have freedoms. I am going to be interested to see what the White House’s response is to this. I think Dan Choi says it very eloquently, when he said, “the message was very clear to all, who think that equality can be purchased with a donation, or a cocktail party, or with tokens that are serving in a public role. We are worth more than tokens; we have absolute value and when the person, who is oppressed by his own country wants to find-out how to get that dignity back – being chained-up and being arrested – that’s how you get your dignity conferred back upon you. And so my call is to any leader, not just American leaders…” <3 David

  • 157. dieter  |  March 19, 2010 at 2:55 pm

    IN a stunning move today..the HRC proves it does NOT support gay rights, and is actually AFRAID of REAL gay rights activists who are actually getting things done.
    It is clearly time for the HRC to lockdown PERMANENTLY.
    when will they get it?.we do not want them?

    HRC is on lockdown, for fear of protesters
    Posted by John Aravosis (DC) at 3/19/2010 05:44:00 PM

    Robin McGehee of Get Equal, the group that organized Dan Choi and Jim Pietrangelo’s handcuffing to the White House fence, and the sit-ins in Speaker Pelosi’s DC and SF offices, to protest inaction on DADT and ENDA respectively, is tweeting that the Human Rights Campaign has been under a lockdown today, for fear of protests:

    Dear @HRC there is no reason to be on lock down – myself and @LtDanChoi are not coming down to do a sit in – LET YOUR PEOPLE FREE
    And I just confirmed the story via numerous sources. Apparently HRC is on lockdown, out of fear that gays civil rights advocate, angry at the organization for providing cover for the President’s and the Congress’s in action on DADT and ENDA, might try to stage a sit-in. I hear that even staff had to use key cards to get into the building, as everything was locked up tight (normally the front door is open).

    Locking the building down like the gay CTU is certainly one option. Another is simply doing your job.

    NB “Inaction” is incorrect. The White House is quite literally not interested in doing DADT this year. And HRC is publicly misleading the community about it. That’s why Barney Frank had to come out last Monday and ask the White House, publicly, to say that it wants DADT repealed this year. It’s been four days, no word from the White House.

  • 158. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  March 19, 2010 at 2:58 pm

    Until we ALL stand up to be counted, until we ALL march on Washington, joining the march from wherever we are living as it crosses from the West Coast to the Nation’s Capital, and until we ALL begin lettingthem know that we are madder than hell and we aren’t going to stand for theis BS any longer, all we will ever be to the political system and its adherents is a group bargaining chip to be played with. It is long past time for us to mobiilize, people!

    • 159. David Kimble  |  March 19, 2010 at 4:38 pm

      Yes, I agree, the time for hiding in the shadows of bigotry and hatred is past, We must take action or risk losing our battles to those, who trump their speeches with flowery words, which do not begin to speak of our contempt for those who have made empty promises too long in America to our community! <3 David

  • 160. Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  March 19, 2010 at 3:02 pm

    Forgot to hit subscribe button again.

    • 161. dieter  |  March 19, 2010 at 4:15 pm

      Melissa’s small mind has been haunted
      so all of the gays she had taunted
      the gays all got mad cuz her attitude was bad
      they slit her throat now she got what she wanted

      her family did not want to bury her
      but they had to cuz no one would marry her
      so they threw her in dirt and now no-one is hurt
      and the world is a whole lot airier

      her children grew up without hate
      which proves that it’s never too late
      they learned how to love with a sign from above
      and now their whole life can be great.

      Love Dieter

    • 162. David Kimble  |  March 19, 2010 at 4:50 pm

      If Melissa were a virus, she would be deadly – she has extracted bits and portions of what she believes gives her justification for her existence. Yet, she rejects anything that does not fit her view of the world. <3 David

  • 163. Kathleen  |  March 19, 2010 at 4:19 pm

    I’m not suggesting anyone join this group, but thought the concept was pretty genius:

    I’d pay to see it.

  • 164. Trevor  |  March 19, 2010 at 4:44 pm

    Wow, it’s spicy in here today. Anyway, back to the subject at hand. While I fervently believe that same-sex couples should have a means of protection when one partner is threatened with deportation, I think this legislation is potentially “putting the cart before the horse.”

    I don’t think it’s a good idea to loosen the controls on immigration, as I believe this would do. Unless you’re born here, citizenship is not a right, it is a privilege. As I see it, this is basically creating a system where one person vouches for another–and why should this be restricted to same-sex couples, that wouldn’t be fair, would it?

    The law is set up so that [opposite-sex] couples can marry and avoid deportation. It specifies marriage to help ward off (or at least provide a little resistance to) those who may just be trying to take advantage of the system. In my opinion, it is not this part of the immigration law that is broken, rather our marriage laws that excludes same-sex marriage. What we need to do is FIGHT FOR MARRIAGE EQUALITY! Then this will work itself out all on its own.

    • 165. David Kimble  |  March 19, 2010 at 5:02 pm

      Trevor, I agree with most of what you write, except one point – is we live in a global world now. The borders between countries have lost much of their meanings. My point is this – when the world changed (circa Reagan) and we developed a global economy, where one is dependent upon another for its survival the old rules have been replaced by greed and avarice. Also, I believe in changing the laws to adjudicate the inequalities that exist in the US. We face so many challenges in the world, places where once, even the brazen were only allowed, but we need to break-down the barriers of inequality and injustice. We still have many battles ahead. <3 David

  • 167. Straight Ally #3008  |  March 19, 2010 at 6:19 pm

    tl;dr guys, long day, but won’t it be nice when all this nonsense is over and done with? Future generations will look back on us like they did upon the eras of segregation, pre-women’s suffrage, and slavery.

    • 168. Kathleen  |  March 19, 2010 at 6:25 pm

      Yes, the day will come. We’re on the right side of history. But it just can’t come soon enough.

  • 169. Melissa  |  March 19, 2010 at 6:43 pm

    I’m appalled at the reaction of people here, Bob excepted. What a sad group you are.

    Bob, it looks as though someone has already started the ball rolling on trying to treat homosexuality and to prevent future cases. I’m sure you’ve heard of the group, but just found them myself after reading your last post:


    • 170. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 6:51 pm

      Awweee poor baby did the gays hurt your feelings?……I’m playing the worlds smallest violin for you TRASH BAG…….What’s sad is that you have yet to apologize for one insult that you have made……..If you don’t want to be yelled at for posting ant-gay hate words….then don’t fu<king post on a LGBTQQIA advocacy site…..YOU IDIOT………

      In fact Dumb ass….NARTH is an illegal practice and is shunned my every medical profession because their practice have lead to death and suicide…..

      You are a homophobic Nazi Klan Hatero WHORE…..GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!…..and stop harassing us or I will have you arrested by IC3 for committing a cyber crime……..<3….Ronnie

    • 171. John  |  March 19, 2010 at 7:13 pm

      You come on here and tell us we’re sick in the head (despite decades of research that shows the opposite), and we don’t react very positively to that.

      You compare us to pedophiles, and we don’t react very positively to that.

      You say work should be done to ensure homosexuality is wiped off the face of the Earth, and we don’t react very positively to that.

      Then you have the gall to call us a sad group of people?

      Sad? NO

      Mad as Hell and not gonna take it anymore? YES

      You are apparently one of the many who thnks freedom of speech means freedom from criticizm.

      Let’s take a guess that you’re white.

      Let’s say you decide to visit a predominantly black church, with a few white members. During the sermon, you stand up and loudly inform everyone in attendance that that n*ggers don’t deserve to live and and n*gger-lovers are race traitors and should be ashamed.

      Now, would you call those people who disagree with your opinion “a sad group?” Or would you run for your life?

      That’s what you’re doing here. The only difference is this is over the internet, rather than in person.

      Plus, were this in person, we’d likely shout you down but nothing more; whereas you and your type would likely resort to violence. Gay bashing is all too common from people with your attitudes and the distortions and blatant falsehoods you help disseminate.

      When was the last time you heard about a straight-bashing? And I don’t mean verbal. I mean some gay folks targeting a straight person and beating him or her so severely he or she either ends up hospitalized or dead.


      Your kind demonizes us, then cries foul when we don’t meekly agree with you.

    • 172. Pam  |  March 19, 2010 at 7:34 pm

      I’m a psychologist who also happens to be a lesbian. Melissa lacks empathy in a very basic sense–she cannot allow herself to see reality from anyone else’s point of view. It’s clear from the way she wants to control her children’s thoughts, from the way she avoids any real conversation with her (possibly gay) cousin, and from the “baiting” remarks she posts just to get attention/reactions. She’s not offered one ounce of compassion towards other humans on this board, and I doubt she has experienced true intimacy, letting down her guard with someone and just being real. It’s all monologue with her, never dialogue. It’s a lonely way to live.
      From what I’ve been reading (yes, I’ve been lurking since the beginning of the trials) most of the posts here are written by folks with more relationship skills in their little fingers than Melissa has at all. If she could hold off on her attacks, she’d learn a lot. But I’m not convinced that she can step outside of her bubble to learn anything new.

      • 173. Bob  |  March 19, 2010 at 10:07 pm

        Pam, good insights, but I would like to say, I have experienced some empathy from Melissa, I would argue that she may appear to be controlling her childrens thoughts, but does not want to, she has been forthright about some of the realities in her life, including a possibly gay cousin, whom she allows her children accesss to. She’s not controlling or overlyprotective in that sense, she alluded to having no intimate conversation with the gay cousin, this does not mean she won’t or can’t, I see it as one family senario, which is being stressed by all the pressure of the present debate, and good for that.
        You are making an assumption that Melissa has the skills to know about baiting, and attention reactions, I think she may be unaware of that, and just really seeking dialog regarding a topic she otherwise cannot discuss.
        AS I said before Melissa could win an award for getting the most replies to her posts, and wonder why that is, why is it necessary for people to continue responding, if it’s just to fuel her fire, and give her what she wants, in terms of emotions of anger and fear and hatred. If we were any better, those of us who feel that way could take the hi road, and simply stop responding, in ways that counter her arguements or beliefs, which only reinforce them.
        Another plus for Melissa, is that she got a lurker to come out and add their voice to the debate, just imagine all of the lurkers out there, wonder how long it will take or what will be needed to be said to provoke them to come out and speak up.
        What is needed is more of these debates, around many family tables (like mine, and Melissa’s) we will get nowhere by telling someone of a different opinion to simply shut up, as if their opinion had no value, isn’t that our experience which we are trying to change.
        I would suggest we attempt friendly debate and dialog, and if we are to enraged to do that, just skip the post,

      • 174. Ronnie  |  March 19, 2010 at 10:31 pm

        Absolutely not!!………that’s like saying keep hitting me Bigot…..If she continues to harass me and insult me….I will return the gesture two fold………….her first comment was not an attempt at friendly debate it was a direct insult and harassment…..and continued to do it….When asked any Q’s not one fu<king answer….because she is an idiot troll cyber stalker………and second this is not a debate…..this is our lives….when she apologizes for insulting us…..I will respect her feelings…until then she is nothing but garbage…..EVERY Hatero thinks that their O.P.s are more important then ours and that are opinions are of no value….case in point…she has never answered that Q….She is a cyber troll…and we have all asked her too stop…several times…..if she keeps it up….it is considered a federal crime according to the IC3 division of the FBI…..Her I.P. address will be put on a list of cyber terrorists which is an illegal federal offense in America……..Why do we have to allow her to harrass us and degrade us?…..I am nobodies B!tch….and I am certainly not her B!tch…..she wants to come into a site like this spouting all that anti-gay trash….she better accept that these are things she is going to hear and deal with it and stop crying little tat sucking infant…. FU<ing cry baby whore….oh gays are yelling at me….boo fu<king hoo….She needs GROW up and get a life of her own and stop trying to control ours….<3….Ronnie

    • 175. draNgNon  |  March 19, 2010 at 8:50 pm

      hello Melissa,

      it seems that you haven’t actually paid much attention the the prop8 trial, which was exactly why this site exists. I suggest before you start putting up links to Narth that you actually read the trial transcripts or the live blog entries on this site for day 7 of the trial.

      here’s the transcript:

      here is the entry on this site:

      that might be too opinionated for you so here is the liveblog entry from the Mercury News:

      please don’t bother talking about Narth as anything legitimate to anyone here. doing so just betrays to everyone that you aren’t bothering to educate yourself of the facts involved in the discussion.

    • 176. Bob  |  March 19, 2010 at 9:30 pm

      Thanks Melissa, but please do further reading on Narth, they’re not new, have been around for a while, and have virtually zero success rate in changing sexual orientation, good plan though if you really want to explore that, perhaps you could join that group and support or help them in some way.
      At least you would be involved with people of like mind, rather than try and convert people on this site who are comfortable with their identities, and I would suggest you get to work quickly, because you have a long way to go to help them prove any type of success.
      I’m sure they need volunteers, and people with your belief in their goals.
      As I mentioned earlier, it is a conflict for you to be so enthralled with psychologists and dr.s , and scientific infomation, which of course Narth proclaims as it’s basis. And obviously you have done a complete switch from earlier conversations where you said scientists, have no influence on your thinking. I guess that can change quickly if you think the science is on your side.
      That’s why I recommended you look in to an A.A. program, more common sense approach, with generations of proven results, just folks helping folks, you could start a group for homosexuals who want to change, it would be a new approach, without coersion. Narth has a very bad reputaion, especially for doing harm to people, That’s not what you want, you just want to help homosexuals who don’t want to live that way.
      The major focus though Melissa, for your success is not to argue with people about your views being right, you would have to let people come to you on their own accord, seeking help to change. So stop getting beat up on this site with people who oppose you, pursue your goals with those of like mind, and good luck. I like you Melissa, and hope you learn a lot, I also would like to hear when you do have the honest conversation with your cousin.
      That’s part of what all this debate is bringing to the for front, admissions of who we are and how our lives inersect, gays, and straights, I think of you and your gay cousin and how this stress impacts your daily lives, the same way it does for me and my family of origin, who are influenced,no brainwashed by religion, I really think they don’t have a free thought that hasn’t been taught to them from preaching.
      But Melissa, at least you have the courage to wade into the debate, and get involved. I can’t fault a person for having a different view than mine, and would hope that you find it in your heart to allow me my views, the golden mean is to do no harm, please keep that in mind love. Narth has done harm, and I have friends who years ago recieved electro shock therapy in attempts at changing their orientation, it was unsuccessfull, and very damaging.
      And of course don’ forget the story of the British War hero, who was gay, and his punishment was chemcial castration, after which he committed suicide. Be very careful of the people you join forces with, and the methods they use to attempt to induce change to make you feel more comfortable.
      I hope you overcome your fears of STD’s and communicate honestly with your family, it’s difficult, not impossible. cheers Bob

    • 177. Straight Ally #3008  |  March 20, 2010 at 2:04 am

      Using NARTH as an authority on homosexuality is like using Answers in Genesis as an authority on evolution.

    • 178. fiona64  |  March 21, 2010 at 8:53 am

      Wow, Melissa.

      I have been nothing but respectful to you, and you come along and say things like this?

      BTW, NARTH has been discredited by every reputable medical and therapeutic association. I know that facts bother you, but there it is.


  • 179. Kathleen  |  March 19, 2010 at 6:47 pm

    In the spirit of Melissa’s recent post, I thought I’d let everyone know that I found an organization that will help cure you of being Black in America, in case anyone here needs their services:

    • 180. Straight Ally #3008  |  March 20, 2010 at 2:10 am


      I’ve been looking for an opportunity to post this. It’s a great lesson in combatting hate through patience, humor, and kindness, as recounted by former high-ranking KKK leader Johnny Lee Clary. Wow, if all of the nation’s pastors were like Rev. Watts, imagine what a better country it would be.

      • 181. Bob  |  March 20, 2010 at 11:29 am

        Kathleen, thanks so much for this video, we could all use a lesson from Rev Watts.

      • 182. Kathleen  |  March 20, 2010 at 11:48 am

        Bob, I didn’t post the video. There’s no way I would hold up this man as an example for our community. While he may have renounced his prior racist views, I’m sure you’ll find his views on glbt people are just as bigoted as ever.

        Also, I’m not convinced that Rev Watts’ way of dealing with bigots is necessarily the best. It often just engenders anger and leads to the bigots escalating the situation. I’m not prepared to be a martyr to the cause.

      • 183. Kathleen  |  March 20, 2010 at 12:02 pm

        In case there’s any doubt about Johnny Lee Clary’s view:

        “God wants us to take a stand against sin and let people know it will send them to hell if they continue to practice that filthy lifestyle. The good news is they can be cured of homosexuality if they let God do it by dedicating their lives to Him.” from Clary’s website

      • 184. Straight Ally #3008  |  March 20, 2010 at 3:22 pm

        Kathleen, I should have done my homework – please accept my apology. My point was Rev. Watt’s bravery in dealing with Clary and his cronies, not to glorify Clary, but it’s clear that Clary has only reformed one aspect of his hate and bigotry and a different example should be used to illustrate my point.

        I think it’s combo of the “nice” approach (getting to know LGBT people, especially families, learning that they are your friends and neighbors) and a “tough” approach (vocal advocacy, protests, writing and speaking out in general) that will ultimately pay off.

      • 185. Kathleen  |  March 20, 2010 at 3:36 pm

        It’s okay, Straight Ally. I know that no harm was meant. And I wouldn’t have even said anything, except that Bob mistakenly attributed the post to me.

        I think when it comes to effecting political and social change, there are many ways to approach it. History has taught us that all successful movements incorporate a variety of methods. There’s a place for civil discourse and a place for angry, “in your face” demonstrations. There’s a need to mount successful populous campaigns and a need to take up legal challenges. I always just say — take up the struggle in whatever branch of the movement you feel most comfortable — they all serve a purpose.

        While I respect the way that Rev Watts chose to deal with racism, as I said, I’m not convinced that it’s the most effective. But I’m sure there were many others besides Clary who were swayed by his dedication to passive non-violence and love. So, good for him and those who choose this path.

  • 186. David Kimble  |  March 19, 2010 at 7:07 pm

    @Melissa – Please find another site to post such ridiculous ideas. This is a gay advocacy website – what can’t you conceive about this reality? Just because one person responds with courtesy and compassion is no reason to believe we all will. When you first appeared here, I was trying to be nice about it, but my niceness is worn too thin, due to illness, etc. So Bitch! – Go to your side of the aisle – NOM blog and have a blast! <3 David

  • 187. Kathleen  |  March 19, 2010 at 7:11 pm

    Latest update on the outing of the SD Air Force sergeant.

    (an aside… what an unfortunate name the ACLU South Dakota executive director has)

    • 188. dieter  |  March 19, 2010 at 9:52 pm

      Two Items I wrote before, but I felt needed repeating in light of our new whack-job Melissa:



      The belief that an invisible Jewish guy in space, will allow you to live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil spirit from your soul
      that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was
      convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magic tree..
      but 2 guys loving each other would be too hard to believe!


      To all the people like Melissa who say that being gay is not natural.
      Being gay is the most natural thing there is.
      you see it is a fact that gays are the ONLY
      phenomena in the ENTIRE universe that do not need to reproduce to maintain our current level of population.
      If you were to kill EVERY single gay person in the universe tomorrow, within a single generation there would once again be as many if not even more gay people.


      now THAT is natural!!
      Nature is insisting that we survive.

      wrap your head around that.

      • 189. K!r!lleXXI  |  March 20, 2010 at 1:19 pm

        Wow! I really enjoyed that, Dieter!
        Christianity definition — A+!
        Gays are natural — A+! Comically unusual tie between cause and effect, but still…

    • 190. Waxr  |  March 19, 2010 at 10:28 pm

      This goes beyond the military. What would have happened of Jene Newson had a civilian job, and the police outed her to her employer? It could have affected her employment and relationship with fellow employees.

      • 191. Waxr  |  March 20, 2010 at 8:57 am

        I will go further on that. The Rapid City’s police chief said his officers followed department protocol. Does that mean it is the departments practice to out gays and lesbians to their employers?

  • 192. Bob  |  March 19, 2010 at 10:13 pm

    Dieter holy crap, well said, the thing about gays reproducing if we were all wiped out tomorrow, we’re just part of nature, so true, it took a long time for a new gay child to enter my homophobic family but alas, tada, we will never be stopped.

    • 193. Bob  |  March 19, 2010 at 10:15 pm

      guess the only way to rid the world of gays is to kill off all hetero’s so they would not produce.

      • 194. dieter  |  March 19, 2010 at 10:59 pm

        Bob, you are mistaken..even killing all the straight people could not prevent gays…for you see..even after all the straight people were gone…gay people could still reproduce…..

        we are the ONLY ones who can never be eliminated.

        Essentially in these modern times, in all actuality…
        straight people have been rendered NON-ESSENTIAL.

      • 195. Bob  |  March 20, 2010 at 10:03 am

        Dieter, I was thinking about that last night, I guess then gays would be raising hetero children, at least they would have a better perspective and outlook , it would indeed be a brave new world

      • 196. Kathleen  |  March 20, 2010 at 10:05 am

        Lots of gay people are raising hetero children right now.

      • 197. Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  March 20, 2010 at 10:10 am

        Yes, they are, Kathleen. In fact, my adult Stepdaughter and adult stepson are both heterosexual and between them, BZ and I have five of the most wonderful grandchildren in the world. And while they don’t always express it out loud, both of them feel that the current atmosphere and discrimination, including the refusal of marriage equality is a SHANDA!

  • 198. Kathleen  |  March 19, 2010 at 11:24 pm

    I was really hoping that we’d see an written order from Walker by the end of business Friday. I knew it wasn’t likely, but I’d hoped….

  • 199. Waxr  |  March 20, 2010 at 12:45 am

    Melissa’s comments on pedophilia got me to wondering what the Bible has to say on the subject.

    There appears to be no passage which prohibits pedophilia. But there are some interesting passages. In Numbers 31the Israelites fight a war against Midian. Every Midianite male male was killed, the women were taken captive.

    Then every woman who had had sexual intercourse with a male was killed. That left 32,000 young girls.
    About half of those girls were given to the people, and the other half were given to the men who had fought against the Midianites. 32 young girls were used as a tribute to God, and 320 were given to the Levites who took care of the Tabernacle.

    In Deuteronomy 20:13-14 it again intructs the Israelites to kill every male, but the women and children may be taken as spoil.

    Without a specific commandment against pedophilia, or prohibiting sex with slaves, you can imagine what happened to those children.

  • 200. John  |  March 20, 2010 at 1:07 am


    Where do you see empathy in Melissa?

    She says we’re mentally ill.

    She compares us repeatedly to pedophiles.

    She declares a desire for our existence to be stamped out.

    There is no empathy in genocide.

    • 201. Bob  |  March 20, 2010 at 12:24 pm

      John, Melissa first of all has been honest regarding her opinions, she is definetly an opponent of equal rights, and I consider her a valued participant in these discussions, because of our differences.
      I appreciate the ability to communicate with an advesary, she represents my mother to me, execpt my mother would not engage in this debate. So I thank Melissa, and bless her for her attempts at expressing herself.
      We have been communicating for a while now, she has shared a lot of her personal life, by answering questions I asked her .
      She showed empathy to me in her response to my own personal story which I shared with her, and sees similarities in how our families deal with a gay member.
      Yes she is honest about her belief that homosexuality is a disorder, we all know how misguided that belief is, and she also finally admitted that yes some of her thinking may be influenced by a Catholic background.,
      Melissa is not advocating genocide, she is advocating for treatment for what she calls a disorder. Hopefully she will read Oz’s story about his personal experience with that, because I think Melissa may be okay with people being mentally damaged, zombies after treatment, just so long as they’re not capable of acting on or expressing love. In that sense perhaps you’re right it may as well be genocide.
      All the negative things she says about us, are in fact what we are up against, she is a very fine example of a person with an opposing view.
      My goal is not to attempt to change her opinion, but to see it, and honor it, as different than mine.
      The truth is different opinions do not change the truth, perhaps they just co-exist along side it.
      Melissa is harmless, I’m growing to love her as an adversary.

      • 202. Ronnie  |  March 20, 2010 at 12:36 pm

        Bob please stop encouraging that trash bag to call us those things…..she has no respect for our opinions but demands that we respect hers…..f-ing B.S…….How f-ing dare she call us those things and get p.o.ed when we call her on it…..SHE 100% BELIEVES THAT HER OPINIONS ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT ARE ALOUD……The only way that I will allow her to continue posting without consequences is if she stops insulting us and calling us derogatory, degrading, condescending names……she has know right to do it to us and then get mad when we do it to her…….She will be held accountable for words……whether she likes it or not…..If she can’t handle it…then she can STFU and go away……<3…..Ronnie

      • 203. John  |  March 20, 2010 at 12:39 pm

        While honesty regarding one’s opinions is commendable, the absolute unwillingness to accept the findings of psychology and medical science, in favor of one’s own dogmatic views and extremely limited experience, does not fall within the realm of commendable.

        As I said before, she tries to link homosexuality with pedophilia, then feigns being shocked when called out on it.

        My point was that for some reason, people here believe that homosexuality is not a disorder . . . I think we should . . . [try] to prevent [its] occurence in the first place.

        From her own words, she betrays herself. She rejects decades scientific findings in favor of her opinion and then adds that homosexuality should be prevented from occurring. That, my friend, is genocide. Anyone who advocates genocide surely must not have the ability to empathize.

  • 204. Ronnie  |  March 20, 2010 at 5:34 am

    Melissa is an acronym for:


    By her unconstitutional and Hitleresque reasoning….LGBTQQIA Americans have 3 options……

    1. change willingly……
    2. be forced to change…….
    3. or be segregated, discriminated against, and be forced to live how the Hateros see fit…..

    All while stealing our tax money to use against us…..and eventually that will lead to genocide/holocaust…..Good luck trying to force me to do anything you Hatero B!TCHES…..<3…Ronnie

  • 205. Melissa  |  March 20, 2010 at 6:52 am

    Bob –

    I think I get it, now. From the little I read on the Narth site, it appears that the people here pick and choose the research that they want to believe based on their preconceived conclusions of what they want. It’s obvious that you hate Narth, but some of the stuff is pretty interesting, especially some of the articles on how the APA came to determine that homosexuality is not a disorder.

    Narth has a link to, which is a site that includes a link to Homosexuals Anonymous!

    If you’ve ever watched the show “Intervention,” you see that some people who have an affliction would rather live with their affliction than try to fight it. I respect the fact that not everyone can or wants to change, but what I don’t respect is those people expecting other people to go out of their way to encourage that behavior or expect the rest of the world to accomodate them because they choose to not change.

    The Narth site (sorry to mention it again, I know it ruffles feathers) mentions the importance of the relationship of fathers and mothers in causing homosexuality. That rings true not only with how my kids are turning out, but also in why my cousin is the way he is.

    Bob, none of us is a clean slate, so I don’t doubt that my Catholic upbringing is involved in my thought process. But common sense and some basic anatomy and biology, separate from Catholicism certainly are more pursuasive to me than anything else in this matter.

    • 206. Ronnie  |  March 20, 2010 at 7:00 am

      What part of the contacting the FBI did you FU<KING get whore?

      NARTH IS ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      One again you fu<kng insulted US…….


      SHUT THE FU<K UP TRASH BAG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • 207. Ronnie  |  March 20, 2010 at 7:05 am


      OR WE WILL FORCE YOU TO!!!!!!!!!!!!……..<3….Ronnie

      • 208. Melissa  |  March 20, 2010 at 7:27 am


        #1 – I didn’t address any of my comments to you
        #2 – I have not expressed any hatred towards anyone here, I have not posted severely or with any hostility. I’ve just expressed contrary opinions. I have posted only occasionally, often in reply to questions that were asked by Bob (and in this thread, Bill’s questions about why heterosexuals act the way they do).
        #3 – You have spewed nothing but hatred and foul language since I first posted. So who’s the hater?
        #4 – I have better things to do than be attacked and cussed at, so I don’t intend to post anymore, except, perhaps, if Bob or anyone else asks to engage with me in a civil manner.

      • 209. Ronnie  |  March 20, 2010 at 7:52 am


        #1 – this is not a chat room it is a public forum…IF YOU WANT AN A & B CONVERSATION THEN C YOURSELF OUT!!!!!!

        #2 – I have not expressed any hate towards you….ANGER and hate are not the same thing you IDIOT….how many fu<king times do I have to tell you that I am ANGRY at you before you get it through you thick SKULL!!….Your comments where insults to who I am….what you are aloud to do it to me but I'm not aloud to do it to?…….I asked you to apologize…you never did…you deserved everything that everybody called you…NOT JUST ME BIGOT!!!!!!!

        #3 – Ture I posted semi-french language but again you, like every other Hatero BIGOT TRASH…Do not seem to know the difference between ANGER and hate…..I do not hate you…true I do not like you….you are not worthy of walking on the same land my dog shites on……you are no better then the slop that is fed to a pig….You compared me to a pedophile, you called me and my kind unnatural, you said the I and people like me are not normal….you said that we have a disorder….after posting those condescending, degrading, insulting, words of HATE….do you think is a civil manner?….Why do you think saying those words of hate make you deserving of any respect and civil manners?

        #4 – Maybe now you'll realize how it feels to be us….but I doubt that…..Poooooooooorrrrr Eve… a few homos and straight people yelled at you…..your a fu<king cry baby…Grow up!!!…….Not only are we verbally attacked and cussed at for who we are…..but we are also physically attacked and/or murdered for who we are….THAT IS A FACT….ACCEPT IT!!!!!!…..It's funny that you said that you were not going to post anymore…but you waited until a thread posted celebrating something that makes us happy… post again….

        If you post again…choose your words safely…because this is not a chat room…if you post something that is insulting to anyone in this community…you will be called it…if you do not to be called on your words and own them….then do not post anything….It really is that simple…STOP ACTING LIKE A CRY BABY and accept that we are not going to allow you to insult us….<3…Ronnie

        #4 –

    • 210. Ronnie  |  March 20, 2010 at 7:25 am

      You do not have to change your mind about anything….keep you disgusting opinions to your Hatero, Swatzy, Triple K, Bigot slef……..BUT YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO FORCE YOUR OPINIONS ON ME…..

      You can either accept that WE WILL NOT BE OPPRESSED anymore…..or be forced to accept it that we are not going away. We are not taking NO for answer anymore…. We will not allow you to force us anymore! There are over 65 thousand trained Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual soldiers not including those who are straight allies, currently serving in the armed services. You want to be forced to give us the rights that are guaranteed to us by birth. Then that is what we will do. We are asking nicely now, but the more you degrade us, the more you discriminate against us, the more you segregate us, gets us one step closer to doing everything our ancestors did during those civil rights movements. Open up a History book and you will see what is coming next if you continue to repeat the mistakes of the majorities of the past. NO JUSTICE NO PEACE!

      Did the african-americans deal with it when white people told no? NO! Did women deal with it when men and government told them no? NO! Did interracial couples deal with it when the white people and the government told them no? NO! Did the colonials deal with it when King George III and the Kingdom of Great Britain told them no? NO! So why should we? Again you act like you own us and we are your property that you can just tell us what to do? Well we’re not. Maybe when get that through your thick skull you can me happy and stop trying to control other peoples lives. We’re here, we’re Queer. YOU DEAL WITH IT!

      Again Melissa…..We will not take no for an answer anymore……You want another civil war……WE WILL GIVE YOU A CIVIL WAR…….NO JUSTICE NO PEACE!!!!

      WHAT DO WE WANT?…….EQUALITY!!!!!……WHEN DO WE WANT IT?……….NOW!!!!!!!!!!!


      NO JUSTICE!!!!!!!………NO PEACE!!….Melissa….LEARN IT….LIVE IT….LOVE IT…and most of all……get a life….AND GROW THE FU<K UP!!!!

      • 211. draNgNon  |  March 20, 2010 at 7:47 am

        Ronnie, chill out, dude.

    • 212. draNgNon  |  March 20, 2010 at 7:53 am

      Melissa, given the state of world current events, you probably don’t want to use your Catholic upbringing to justify our thought process linking homosexuality with pedophilia.

      After all, it’s not the gays going broke and generating los of bad press from pedophilia scandals, it’s the Catholic Church.

      Perhaps if the Catholic Church devoted more resources to stopping this abhorrent behaviour than they did to stopping gay marriage, the world would be a better place.

      • 213. draNgNon  |  March 20, 2010 at 7:54 am

        hm, horrible typo there. “your thought process” not “our”

    • 214. Ozymandias ('cause it's cooler than 'Elbert')  |  March 20, 2010 at 8:08 am

      I have been in ‘lurker’ mode for a while now – but the issue of ‘conversion therapy’ is one I cannot be silent – speaking as a victim of this dangerous practice, I have the personal experience (not to mention the emotional scar-tissue) that far outweighs someone’s ‘common sense’ opinion – especially when that person will never undergo anything even similar themselves. It’s easy to say that a frontal lobotomy is a great medical solution – if you never plan on having one!

      Organizations like NARTH, Evergreen (for the Mormons) and Exodus International have an ever-growing chorus of former leaders, members and counselors who are standing up and saying that not only is this practice dangerous from a psychological aspect, but also completely distorts Christian teaching.

      Here is but one example:

      Naturally, people from Team Kay will never budge on their viewpoints – and websites like peoplecanchange will only feed that misbelief by distorting the facts, making up BS and packaging it in language that salves whatever few qualms of actual compassion or true morality – the Prop 8 trial has vividly shown how this process works, and how effective it is.

      I have found a number of online resources over the years to help me recover from my ‘ex-gay’ years, and I offer them here to you good folks (with the exception of Team Kay’s members, who will doubtless ignore anything that doesn’t conform to their own beliefs).

      Again, these are just samples of the growing online community of ‘ex-gay’ survivors… people like me who were emotionally and spiritually devastated by this so-called ministry, but have recovered and moved on to find true wholeness and healing – by embracing our Gayness!



      • 215. Kathleen  |  March 20, 2010 at 11:42 am

        Ozy, thank you for coming out of lurker mode. People need to hear these first hand accounts of the horrible damage done to people by these organizations. In some ways, these “conversion” groups are more dangerous than the KKK because they couch their message in “love” for the targets of their attacks. At least the KKK is forthright about its hatred of the people they target.

      • 216. Bob  |  March 20, 2010 at 11:56 am

        Ozy, thank you so much for coming out , from lurking, it’s so encouraging to see people find something on this site that makes them say “I can no longer be silent” the information you share, is extremely valuable, as is your personal story, thanks for having the courage to bring this forward, and out into the discussion, hopefully others will do the same.
        You give me hope and strengh, this posting is a powerful counter to Melissa’s belief in reparative therapy. At least her posts have brought the best out in you, hope others will follow suit. Thanks again cheers Bob

    • 217. Michelle Evans  |  March 20, 2010 at 8:48 am


      I even hate to wade into this debate, but feel I have to at least give it a reasonable shot.

      The problem here, and why you have received so much vehemence directed at your comments, is not that you expressed them in the first place–that is a reasonable thing to do if you are not fully informed and educated on the subject–it is that you have apparently chosen the position that no matter what anyone says, or what evidence is brought forward, you have shown no ability to process that information and to modify your views based on actual evidence.

      This is what reasonable people do. Instead, you have shown that you want to hang onto your beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. When you bring up an organization such as NARTH, that has done such great harm to people in our community, it is the equivalent of saying (as pointed out by Kathleen, I believe) that going to the KKK will cure you of being black!

      If you want to hear the message that the KKK delivers, if you want to believe that being black makes you subhuman, then you will find their arguments absolutely reasonable. If you also believe that being gay, lesbian, or transgender makes you subhuman, you will find NARTH to be a reasonable place to reside.

      Being LGBT has absolutely nothing to do with your upbringing, your parents, your church, or anything external. That fact has been proven scientifically over and over again through the years. As an example, how would you explain a gay person coming out of a loving and “normal” religious family? They have a husband and wife who loves each other, does not abuse their kids in any way, goes to church every Sunday and believe with all their heart in the Bible, yet a child still comes out gay (or lesbian, or transgender) because this is just something that occurs naturally on our planet.

      For a personal example, there is a prevailing theory at NARTH that if you are a male-to-female transsexual, such as myself, then I must have identified with an overbearing mother. Unfortunately I can completely dismiss that “scientific” notion because my parents divorced in my teen years, and since I literally hated my mother at that time in my life, I went and lived the rest of my childhood with my father. Under the NARTH theory, I should then have become gay, because I had no prominent mother figure to “balance” things out. Yet I am trans, and have been since my earliest recollections (age 3, or even before).

      And to dissuade you from thinking that my being trans is just a way of dealing with being gay, sexually I am a woman myself and have never been attracted to men in the slightest, thus I am actually a lesbian. My life alone disproves so many theories of NARTH and other churches and organizations that believe what they want to believe in the face of actual evidence to the contrary.

      If, in our conversation here, you showed that you were actually attempting to learn something and be open to understanding, then you would get a vastly different reaction from us all. Instead, you hold tight to outdated and disproven beliefs, and search the internet for organizations (such as NARTH, the LGBT version of the KKK) to back up those beliefs.

      Be open. Be willing to show that you would learn something new. Be willing to say, maybe you could be wrong, especially when shown real and true evidence to the contrary, that being LGBT is not an abomination and does not need to be “cured.”

      Those who feel the need to be “cured” are almost always those who are being told by people such as yourself that they are bad, that the ARE abominations, so they try to fit in and change who they are at their core level. That is what causes harm. One of my friends committed suicide the day after Thanksgiving last year because of non-acceptance by her friends, family, wife, and church. That is not what a “Christian” should cause to happen. Once you can understand what harm that you cause, then maybe we will all be more than happy to speak with you with love and acceptance.

    • 218. Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  March 20, 2010 at 9:05 am

      You are such a pitiful excuse for a human being, Melissa. You come to this site and repeatedly insult us, you continue to expound on why you think we need to change, you constantly refuse to see the light of truth, you continually compare us to pedohiles, and then you wonder why so many of us get upset and angry. Perhaps instead of only researching those uninformed, superstitious, fear-laden misguided fools who are willing to do anything to change us, no matter how harmful the results, you should actually open your mind and wrap your grey cells around acceptance of the diversity of humankind, and accept that not everyone is going to be identical to you and to yor warped ideas about humanity. YOu might also want to look into the history of all civil rights movements and look at the arguments that were used in fighting women’s rights, the rights of our African American citizens, and the other civil rights battles. the arguments are the same, only the groups have changed. Also, had it not been for a lesbain by the name of Susan B. Anthony, you would not have the right to vote, nor would you have many of the other rights you currently enjoy. And one of the greatest artists of th Renaissance era was gay. We make more contributions to society than anyone wants to dmit, simply because they refuse to acknowledge that we are human beings and that we have value. When you degrade one group in society out of ignorance and prejudice, you degrade yourself.

    • 219. Pam  |  March 20, 2010 at 10:27 am

      @Bob–can you see, in this post, Melissa’s willful ignorance of another’s point of view? She chooses to continue naming our gayness as an “affliction”, not even trying to empathize with how hurtful that word is. I don’t understand how limited her imagination is, that she can’t imagine someone growing up and realizing their same-sex attraction in just the same way folks realize their opposite-sex attraction. Love is love; and caring relationships are never an “affliction.”
      I still don’t see her seeking a dialogue here; she just quotes the same tired arguments that only work to dehumanize a whole portion of humanity. She’s working hard to “other” us so that she won’t have to accept us as equals.

      • 220. Bob  |  March 20, 2010 at 1:14 pm

        Pam, I didn’t mean to ignore your post, some of your questions are answered in my responses to John, and Melissa,

        Yes Melissa is clutching with a firm grip to her belief, even though It may be born of ignorance or false teachings by the Church, I don’t see any benefit in attempting to change her belief, she’s entitled to it.

        A belief is only strengthened by opposing it, it can only exist if their is a counter belief which it must withstand.

        Expecting Melissa to give up her belief, because we don’t agree is no different than her expecting us to change because of her belief.

        You’re right LOVE is LOVE , and caring relationships are never an “affliction” the challenge Melissa brings is can we LOVE and form a caring relationship with her, this would eliminate attempts the concept of “other”
        a small step forward for Melissa is her acknowledgement that “none of us is a clean slate” baby steps I know

      • 221. Ronnie  |  March 20, 2010 at 1:25 pm

        Listen Bob…..nobody expects that troll to change her beliefs…..but we do expect that when repeatedly asked to stop insulting, degrading us, and talking AT us in a condescending manner by every single person here….including straight people….which she repeatedly ignores….just like every other Hatero that ASSumes that only gay people are yelling at her…

        She doesn’t have to insult us then demand that we do not do the same to her….She she threats us like her slaves…..we are not her f-ing property that she can just insult us not expect retaliation…She’s a NAZI…….<3….Ronnie

    • 222. Bob  |  March 20, 2010 at 12:49 pm

      Hi Melissa, I can see you’re excited about the new information you’ve found, keep reading, and searching.
      Are you aware of the scale I think it’s the Kinsey scale, of sexuality, beginning at 1 going all way to 10, we all express ourselves at some point on that scale, for example homosexual behavior can be expressed by anyone, the low end or 1, the person has very minor or practically zero desire to express or act on these feelings. (better if you do your own research about it)
      But I’m thinking Melissa, that the people who would have the most success and the one’s you are aiming at would be on that end of the scale,
      As for the majority of us, on the other extreme, please scroll down and read the posting #206 by Oz, he shares personal experience with your suggestions. and offers some very good links for furthering your research.
      Furthermore, my dear friend, consider when you read his story, that you might first attempt to seek out similar therapy for yourself, it’s available for ex Catholics.
      For the time being, I think you are lying to yourself if you say your thoughts are your own and separate from Catholicism. I understand how much you want that, and encourage you on your journey to accomplish free thought.
      I would also love if I could blame my parents for my sexual orientation, due to parenting styles boy would that blow my mothers mind, maybe she would be more willing to engafg me in converstion to understand it, A mother’s guilt, WOW that’s a cash cow for the pope. Again I’m just like your cousin in that sense, re the parenting styles. Sweetheart, no matter what you do ain’t going to change destiny, but the learning and exploring may help you to develope the ability for open communication, and the ability to accomodate differences, and that would go a long way in enhancing your relationships, with your children, and your cousin.
      Melissa, I’m waiting to hear you tell me about having an open discussion with them about these things, I know that’s your ultimate goal. You don’t need all the information before you begin, to prop up your side of the opinion, you can all discover it together as you move through it. cheers Bob p.s. amen to your admitting “none of us is a clean slate” we all have oure faults,,,,,,

      • 223. Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  March 20, 2010 at 1:05 pm

        Yes, and Bob, one of the reasons I have had so many problems with organized religion comes not only from my sexual orientation, but because of what I was told by too many preachers when I tried to get out of the situation with my “father” when I was growing up. Imagine having the man who is supposed to raise you put you through a reign of terror growing up, so that you spend your first 18 years of life walking on eggshells, with the abuse including sexual assault, and being told by the precher that you are lying about it, or that you prvoked it, or that you are going to hell for not stopping it, that you allowed it to continue because you enjoyed it too much to stop it, and having the same misinformed arguments thrown at you that Melissa is throwing at all of us here. Then try being sympathetic to a person who shows sociopatic/psychopathic tendencies, as Melissa is doing here in here posts. There comes a point in life when it is no longer possible to blythely lay down and allow someone to walk all over you without standing up and fighting for your rights to live as a fully functional human being and that full functioning includes being allowed to marry the person you ove without having to fear that you will be murdered for that. And as John said, even the destruction of the mind and the will to live is genocide. That is what Melissa advocates. That is why Melissa needs to either get off here, or do some honest research and soul-searching and find out why she is so full of hatred and self-loathing that she needs to attack other people who do not agree with her views. And I have also noticed that she has not once had anything to say with regard to my posts, even though my posts go straight to the heart of what is wrong with her and how she can change and actually become a true woman of valor and a true woman of G-d.

      • 224. Pam  |  March 20, 2010 at 2:03 pm

        @Bob–you are doing a fine job of relating to M. compassionately. I agree, I don’t think it’s our job to either oppose her or try to change her if she’s not there yet. I guess I just think she’s playing around, taking our lives so lightly here on this board. My point is, since she is so unwilling to see things from our perspective, she is only hanging around to taunt or shame people and therefore is using this board not as a source for information or maturation, but as a means for abusing others. I think that if she truly wanted a dialogue, she would ask more questions and stop posting hurtful things.

      • 225. Kathleen  |  March 20, 2010 at 2:11 pm

        @Pam, I agree.

      • 226. Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  March 20, 2010 at 2:11 pm

        @Pam. I agree with you. If Melissa were wanting more than just a place to vent diatribes, I would be okay with it. It is when she insults and degrades not only me, but all of the fine people I have met here, whom I consider to be my extended family, that I get upset, and sometimes, in my hurt, I may not always make myself clear. Also, by her very refusal to even consider the fact that we are human beings, Melissa insults her own humanity. I only wish your practice were closer to me, as I think it would be very beneficial to have access to a professional counselor who is also LGBT. Or do you know of a link where I could locate one?

      • 227. Michelle Evans  |  March 20, 2010 at 2:32 pm

        Bob said, “Expecting Melissa to give up her belief, because we don’t agree is no different than her expecting us to change because of her belief.”

        I would disagree on a simple point here: Melissa will never give up her belief because she does not want to be exposed to actual and verifiable facts. I would say that most all the people on this site are open to facts, and could change their mind according based on new evidence.

        Now, none of us here are expecting that this will ever happen, especially because it has already been shown that things like ex-gay therapy and the like are harmful. We have studies to back this up, not dogma.

        I’m sure a lot of people here are familiar with Richard Dawkins. He once famously stated that if one day it was able to be proven by scientific methods and actual undeniable evidence that Creationism is actually the way that accounts for our presence on this planet, then he would, as a scientist, have no choice but to believe that evidence over that of evolution. He, and so many of us, believe that this can never happen, simply because creationism is actually not scientific by its very nature, but the fact remains that if it were, then that would be another matter.

        Another scientist (not of evolution), who was also a fundie, stated once the opposite of what Dawkins did, by saying that even if Evolution is one day proven to be absolutely correct, with no possibility for error (which it already pretty much has!), he would not care and would still believe in creationism because god told him to.

        So, with that argument in mind, please don’t say that Melissa and the rest of us are opposite sides of the same coin. We are not in even the same currency!!

      • 228. Bob  |  March 20, 2010 at 5:10 pm

        @ Pam, I get your point, re the possible reasons Melissa is on this site, like playing around, tauntng or shaming us, being abusive, unwilling to see things from our perspective. How would you suggest we deal with this so called unwanted behavior. It is a lesson worth learning because, she presents the perfect example of what we’re up against. the very typical voice of our opponents. And we are to them an example of the LGBT community, the site is for trackers, but is it for only trackers of like mind? We have a hetero, right here in our midst, what could we do with her?
        @Kathleen, first of all apologies for saying you posted the video, I understand why you would not, thanks for accepting we take different approaches, mine at present is not much liked or supported, ( I would be a martyr, there is no better cause to stand for in my life) I appreciate very much everyone voicing their anger, we need to be loud, REVOLT
        @Michelle thanks for your reference to Dawkins, I love the quote , it would be difficult for scientists to change their minds if they came up with new evidence proving creationism, but they would be more able to adapt, that is a very good point, beliefs are as different from scientific evidence, as apples and rat poison. What we are all really confronted with is as Granny D, would say “emancipation of the mind” to free ourselves from our own beliefs and concepts of how we see the world,and open ourselves to new possiblities.

  • 229. Hunter R.  |  March 20, 2010 at 8:07 am

    Maybe too late with this comment. I’m an American Citizen and my partner is not. We have been in a delicate situation for the last few months and he had to go back to Mexico. I had to follow in order to be with him and stayed with him for a month. Now I’m back in the States and feel torn in small little pieces. Can’t wait till DOMA is gone.

    • 230. Casey  |  March 20, 2010 at 8:27 am

      Poor thing. Are you geographically close to Mexico, at least? What would the parameters be for you moving there, since Mexico City and Coahuila support marriage equality? It can be tough with jobs, family, etc…but if you are able, maybe it’s a good thing to take your money and be with your partner in a place that respects you as a family – at least in the legal sense.

  • 231. Waxr  |  March 20, 2010 at 8:44 am

    I came across a relevant and interesting article on Constitutional interpretation titled “Interpreting the Constitution: More than What the Supreme Court Says” by
    Louis Fisher, Library of Congress

    The author’s position is that a Supreme Court decision is not the final word. He brings out numerous cases in which Constitutional interpretation was influenced by Congress, the President, and by public opinion. Often it is give and take between Congress and the Court as the Court makes a decision, and then Congress works around the decision. Often public criticism has forced the Court to reconsider a decision, with the result of reversing or modifying it.

    Of particular interest to us the author says, “It is a misconception to think that the protection of individual rights depends exclusively or even primarily on the courts. The struggle for rights generally comes from individuals who decide to oppose government abuse or challenge conventional legal doctrines, often at great cost to themselves.”

    Just ignore what the author says about President Jackson.

  • 232. Dan Hess  |  March 20, 2010 at 8:57 am

    Hey, anyone want to back us up in the discussions on the Pope’s Facebook page? We’ve got some dialogue going and it’s at least currently rather respectful.

    • 233. Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  March 20, 2010 at 9:13 am

      Dan, if you are on FB, please send me a friend request, along with the link for the Pope’s page. I will respond to both. And when you go looking, I am in Hope Mills, NOrth Carolina. Or you can find me on the P8TT group’s page.

    • 234. John  |  March 20, 2010 at 9:24 am

      The Pope is on Facebook? Is Satan on there, too?

      • 235. Ronnie  |  March 20, 2010 at 9:27 am

        Silly…..the current Pope is Satin….or at the very least….Satin adjacent…..<3….Ronnie

      • 236. Kathleen  |  March 20, 2010 at 9:29 am

        Thank you John, that was my good chuckle for the day.

        and in answer to your question: Yes. Currently with over 27,000 friends.

  • 237. Hunter R.  |  March 20, 2010 at 9:42 am

    @casey 199
    I’m in California. So is a short trip to his town. The problem is survival there and the point is why are we forced to moved away from home? Why our family is not recognized?
    Our heterosexual brothers and sisters can bring their spouses to the states, we can’t. This is apartheid.
    The situation also gets more complicated because I think my partner now that he is back home feels pressure to get married and also we both have been affected by the economical crisis. I’m eligible for unemployment benefits but he was not (but he payed taxes!). So our relationship is a complete mess at this point and complicated by this official discrimination.
    To be honest I don’t know what to do. I’ve been traveling back and forth for the last few months and don’t know if I can do it anymore…..

    • 238. Casey  |  March 20, 2010 at 6:36 pm

      I hear you, Hunter R. It sounds like a really complicated situation, and it is indeed totally unfair that you, as people wanting to abide by the laws of both nations and be productive, responsible citizens, are forced to bear the pain of separation and the strain of unfair legislation like DOMA.

      A few questions: can you clarify what you mean by survival in Mexico? Economic survival, or is it physically dangerous in the town where your beloved lives? Also, when you say that he is getting pressure to get married, do you eman his family is pressuring him to marry you, or someone else of his own nationality?

      I wish I could change this situation for you. I know you must be feeling so sad and frustrated by what is, as you say, official discrimination. I agree 100% that the DOMA law is unconstitutional, unfair, and dispicable. But I don’t know if your relationship has time to wait for the repeal of DOMA. It’s easy for me to say, “Oh, just move there”, because it’s not my situation. I understand that many times, it simply isn’t that simple.

      Much love to you.

  • 239. Bigots Fight Against Family Across Borders : Veterans Today  |  March 20, 2010 at 10:07 am

    […] March 20, 2010 by Michael Leon · Leave a Comment  ShareFrom Brian Leubitz at Prop Eight Trial Tracker: […]

  • […] From Brian Leubitz at Prop Eight Trial Tracker: […]

  • 241. Dan Hess  |  March 20, 2010 at 2:13 pm

    Walter, I can’t find you on Facebook or on the Trial Tracker page. >_> Name’s Dan Hess, obviously. You can filter by Hood College or Frederick, MD.

  • 242. Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  March 20, 2010 at 2:14 pm

    Will do.

  • 243. Melissa  |  March 21, 2010 at 12:54 pm

    Bob –

    Let’s be honest, here. Everyone here has their biases and I have mine. So, you can point to your research that shows X and I can find those that say Y. And then we look at how the studies are conducted and we see the bias of the researchers.

    What’s funny to me is that we have to conduct all these studies on the one hand, to show that homosexuality is normal and on the other hand to show that it is not, when the evidence is right between our legs as to what is normal. Oh, we can play all those semantics games about what normal means, but it’s really only rationalizing and accomodation.

    • 244. John  |  March 21, 2010 at 1:08 pm


      Let’s be honest, here. Yes, everyone has a bias. We are biased in that we know ourselves, we know the rejection of society (and for many, family and friends), and we know we deserve the same rights as everyone else. You are biased in that you know nothing about us other than our existence should be prevented.

      “The evidence is right between our legs as to” our physical birth gender, or mix of genders, in the case of interesexed people. It is not absolute evidence of gender identity or sexual orientation.

      Scientific studies done to seek information vs. studies done by anti-gay, non-scientitic organizations are definitely going to have different biases. The former would be most likely biased towards seeking answers, whereas the latter would be biased towards supporting condemnation of non-heterosexual people.

      You’re the one trying to play semantics and rationalize your prejudices, so stop accusing those of us who actually KNOW SOMETHING about the subject at hand of doing so.

    • 245. Ronnie  |  March 21, 2010 at 1:08 pm

      Well there the b!tch goes again……implying that we are not normal…..what point of that is insulting to us do you not understand?

      I don’t believe that I am normal….I KNOW…..are you saying that I’m wrong because you don’t like it?

      your uneducated Phycho trash implies that all humans only make decisions based on what ‘s in between their legs? Soooo…you believe that your V-JJ controls your heart and your brain? Yeah ok…..nut case….

      I don’t think you are normal at all……..I think you are a condescending, ecocentric , narcissistic b!tch……that has a serious god complex and I suggest that seek mental help……..<3…Ronnie

    • 246. K!r!lleXXI  |  March 21, 2010 at 1:20 pm

      @Melissa, you are inherently mistaken confusing natural and normal! Heterosexual sex is natural because it was designed for recreational purposes. But it doesn’t mean that something that went aside from this one purpose is not normal! It is unnatural somewhat, but as to normalcy — you cannot make such a statement!

      So, you’re forgetting about the greater picture — it’s not a question of being normal or not, natural or not… it’s a question of being harmful or not…

      Does homosexuality harm other people in any REAL way? NO! If you say ‘Yes’, prove it…
      Does the so-called reparative treatment of homosexuality harm people? YES! And a lot of evidence supports it.
      So, why should we pretend we can “fix” something that does not cause anyone any problems if “fixing” it actually causes other real problems?

      And, damn right it’s about accommodation! Why not? Do you think that sick people should be denied rights? Do you think disabled people should not be provided with ramps, special doors, toilets, lifts, transportation? Isn’t that the accommodation? I’m not disabled, I don’t need these ramps of whatever, but I don’t mind accommodating people who need those! So, when gay people (me included) ask for accommodating your laws to include me and to give me marriage rights I deserve just like the next guy, do I really ask for more accommodation than those disabled people? You don’t even have to build any ramps for us… All we want is a piece of paper from our government! Stop being hypocritical and stop enforcing double standards on us! We’re not doing anything immoral or bad, we only want to live our normal lives, and this is people like you who make gays hide and live promiscuous lives — that’s what you don’t understand with your closed mind!

      –Kirill, Russia

    • 247. Michelle Evans  |  March 21, 2010 at 1:57 pm


      The problem, as has been pointed out several times, but that you do not want to entertain, is that you are listening to a group of “researchers” such as at NARTH, who do not follow scientific methodology. They have their religious agenda to justify, and they do it very well by scaring LGBT people back into the closet, or even to death. (I’ll be glad to relate my story of my friend Christine, who committed suicide a few months ago because of people such as yourself.) They only “create” “ex-gays” through intimidation, and only on the surface, never deep inside the person’s soul.

      There is not one actual fact to back up anyone’s anti-LGBT bias, but there is plenty of religious dogma that does. Give us one citation, of one research study, done by any reputable scientific organization, that shows that LGBT people are abnormal and that they can be “repaired.” And to add to that, to again use science. Show us this study and also the independent verification of repeatablity that is required by all science to verify results.

      With that said, I have to ask a simple question of you: Do you believe in science; do you believe in demonstrable facts?

      That is the difference between us.

      I would wager–and feel free to say I am wrong–that besides your attitudes and beliefs against LGBT people, that you also believe the Earth is relatively young, and that evolution is a non-proven theory (i.e., you believe in creationism or ID).

  • 248. Bob  |  March 21, 2010 at 3:57 pm

    Okay!!!! let’s be honest, you have a biase against me personally because of how I use what’s between my legs for physical pleasure, . You are so infatuated with this idea of me finding pleasure, and enjoying intimacy with someone else with whom I celebrate that physical intimacy, that your whole life has become consumed with your thoughts of what I do with my body, and the parts I’m endowed with naturally.
    I have fought for the right to explore my thing between my legs with the person I choose, we called that , getting the police out of our bedrooms. That was back in the 70’s, it was Prime Minister Trudeau, who voiced that concern and told the gov’t, and specifically the POPE, because he was using the gov’t to enforce his laws. That gov’t has no business in our bedrooms, that I as a person, solely have the right to decide how I experience my body and the ways I derive pleasure from it.
    I think the point is Melissa, honestly, I have been able to achieve this ability to derive physical pleasure (a gift of nature) without guilt. It is truly liberating, and I honor that gift to the point I would defend that right at all costs including life.
    Since we’re being honest, have you found that ability to truly achieve physical pleasure to the point of orgasm, with that part between your legs that was designed for that purpose. Or do you still encounter guilt feelings when you touch yourself there, because the POPE says that thing between your legs is not for pleasure but for reproduction.
    Honestly, have you ever had sex, purely for pleasure, as friends Melissa, I really want to here your answer.
    This is pretty straight forward stuff , sharing between friends, we don’t need to conduct any research or point to any to back up our answers, let’s just get honest and personal. about what you do with your thing between your legs, I told you what I do with mine.
    And while you’re at it, read the post above especially Michelle’s, you’ve heard the criticism about your posts, now is your opportunity to prove them right, answer Michelle’s questions,
    Does the POPE own your body????

    • 249. Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  March 21, 2010 at 4:22 pm

      Bob, it is even worse than that. Even though she refuses to admit it, and even though I still think this is merely a new handle for a previous troll, the Pope not only own’s Melissa’s BODY, but her MIND and SOUL as well. That is how powerful the indoctrination of the Catholic Church is, especially when it begins from the cradle. It is as difficult to break away from that stunted mindset as it is to do so with the LDS or the Southern Baptists. Let us all pray in whatever fashion that is comfortable for us, that Melissa sees the light of truth and begins to break away and become a true free thinker.

      • 250. Ronnie  |  March 21, 2010 at 4:58 pm

        I will kneel at my alter of GaGa……and pray for her “Bad Romance”……I will light a candle to bless her non-“Poker Face”…..I will do my rain “Just Dance” so that maybe she will see the Rainbow or at least learn to tolerate it and accept that it will not just disappear……..I will also pray that I make it “Beautiful, Dirty, Rich”…..hehehehe…….I will pray that she will join our “Love Game” or at least gracefully bow out if she chooses to continuously degrade……Oh and I heart Mens, Mens not “Boys, Boys”……I will pray that she, the other Hateros, and the government will stop being more intrusive then the “Paparazzi”…….Some may say that I love being called derogatory and offensive names, in other words, “I Like it Rough”…..I am not one of them…..well not in every aspect of my life and most def. not all the time if you get my drift?…….I will pray that she, the other Hateros and the government soon realize that I and We will not be “Speechless”…..and that I for one will not stop until I am “So Happy I Could Die”…or at least have 100% Full Equality and get Married in the eyes of the LAW……The Equality “Telephone” has rung and many have answered and welcomed its call….or at least tolerated it’s call…….I will pray at the alter of GaGa….for now….”Eh Eh(Nothing Else I Can Say)”…..accept…..DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!……..<3….Ronnie

      • 251. Bob  |  March 21, 2010 at 5:15 pm

        Richard, of course, as I’ve mentioned on numerous posts, our present fight has one goal, for everyone “emanicpation of the mind” freedom of thought,
        the brain is the biggest sexual organ in the body, not to forget our thoughts produce emotions followed by actions, there really are only two emotions, to simplify things fear or love, those emotions are the source of all action, no matter how far we break it down, disgust, envy, sadness, anger, hatered, all flow from fear, and all positive emotions follow from love.

      • 252. Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  March 21, 2010 at 5:28 pm

        Yes, Bob, you are correct. All positive things, not just emotions, flow from love. When you love someone, you do commit to them wholeheartedly, through thick anc thin, in sickness and in health, no matter what. When you love someone, you enjoy doing things for him or her that you would not even think about doing for anyone else. When you love someone, you act on that in a positive way. And yes, negative actions come from fear, just like negative emotions come from fear. Even in the Bible we read that perfect love casts out fear. I guess Melissa has not yet found perfect love, because her fear is so obvious from her posts, even though she tries to deny that fear.

  • 253. Melissa  |  March 22, 2010 at 6:19 am

    As I said before, I’m not religious. Believe it or not, I am capable of drawing my own conclusions without the help of a pope or biased research group (on any side of the issue). So, please stop with that red herring.

    As far as objective research goes (as opposed to the psychobabble analyses that people are throwing at one another), I can’t find anything that says conclusively that homosexuality is a completely inborn trait. As long as that’s the case, then children are susceptible to being pursuaded to be homosexual by external factors, such as peer pressure or parental relationships or what’s seen on TV or the movies or on the internet.

    I don’t want my kids to become homosexual, not because I hate homosexuals, but because I want my kids to marry someone that they can have kids with, continue our bloodline, give me grandkids, and all the other things that homosexual couples cannot do. I want them to be monogamous and not be susceptible to the high rate of STDs that are reported in homosexuals. Also, it’s always hard being different from most other people, and so I wouldn’t want them to have the burden of being different. What’s wrong with wanting that?

    AIt does not follow, as many here suggest, that I wish harm on homosexuals. I think it’s probably pretty hard to be homosexual. I don’t treat my cousin badly because he is gay. I don’t talk badly about him to others.

    I don’t doubt that it’s hard to change from homosexuality to straight, and maybe even harmful. But I think that, like any affliction, we should be focussing on trying to prevent it rather than change our laws to accomodate it and make our kids susceptible to it. That doesn’t do much for those of you who are already committed to not changing, but I can’t see why it’s a bad thing to try and prevent future offspring from something which causes so much angst, deprives people of having their own children, and exposes them to such high rates of disease.

    • 254. Ronnie  |  March 22, 2010 at 7:13 am

      And we are supposed to believe you, Nazi, just because you say it? Who fu<k do you think you are to tell us what to stop saying? We asked you to stop saying things but you didn't get the f-ing point?……..Why are you aloud to do it to us but we're not not aloud to do it to you?…….Get over yourself Hatero…….YOU'RE FU<KING HYPOCRITE BIGOT HATERO………that's need to be slapped upside your ugly face……..

      Here's your f-ing proof you uneducated idiot….WE ARE GAY AND NOT ONLY DO WE SAY BUT WE KNOW THAT WE ARE BORN GAY……stop insulting us an telling us that we do not know what goes on in our head….stop pretending to be a fu<king psychic… PSYCHO………

      What you want has very little to do with reality…you ASSume that your demon spawns will be able to have kids……Your kids can still be gay and continue your bloodline and give you grandkids….you FOOL… you even know how in-vitro and surrogacy works? You see if your son is gay…he can take his sperm (i.e your blood line) and fertilize an egg….poof….. BABY……….you dense piece of donkey trash……….Grow up Troll…Whats wrong with us trying to be happy?….Why do you assume that all homosexuals are not monogamous?…..Do you know all homosexuals?……I'm monogamous…..Heterosexuals have the highest rate of STDS you imbecile….. There is nothing wrong with wanting whats best for your kids but wanting and forcing other people including your kids, to want what you want is not what is best for your kids…..Again what you want has very little to with reality…….

      You don't treat your cousin badly….yeah ok….calling people like him unnatural, not normal, comparing them to pedophiles, and telling them that they have a disorder is treating your cousin good….one should be so lucky to have family like that….Oh yeah…that's love baby….I love you so much that think you are unnatural….please…give me a fu<king break…NAZI……

      And in your last statement you prove that you want us to be illegal……If it looks like a duck…and posts like a duck….it must be a Nazi……or aka…a QUACK

      QUACK…….What about out kids?…..Are they not important?……Why do you keep ignoring that we have kids?…..Unless you don't think kids?…..But then what are they?…….Homosexuality doesn deprive people from have children….we do have children….in-vitro…..surr-a-casy…..adoption……aka we can have children….TADA…..

      "Those of you who have committed to not changing"…again the Hatero act like a psychic and seems to know what is going on in our minds?……Since you know ALL of us so well…..tell me….when did I choose to not change?……And also why should allow my tax money to be used against me?……The constitution says we the people not we the straight people…………If you don't want the constitution to protect us and our children….then don't tax us….It really is that simple….what point of that do you not get…..

      I think you are fu<king parasite trying to control my life and sucking everything that is free out of the land of the free………am I wrong because I'm not straight like you……..Who the fu<k do you think you are?……Thinking that your beliefs and your opinions are better then mine? That they are deserving of any respect more then mine are………..You make me sick….an no not your lifestyle….your ability to degrade us… ability to harass us…….your ability to insult us…..your ability to act like you are better….Trash is not better then anything…..trash is nothing but a burden…..

      Really Melissa what part of civil war do you not understand……..Why should we accommodate your beliefs?…Why should we allow you to tell us what to do?…..We are not your property…..we are not slaves….why to you continue to act like you have the right to tell us what to do?……

      Melissa Get a life and Deal with it…..the LGBTQQIA community is NEVER going to be ILLEGAL…….WE are not going away…..WE WILL NOT STOP OR TAKE NO FOR AN ANSWER……we will die and take all of you with us before you force us to live how you see fit…..This is not Nazi Germany anymore….. WE WILL fight back….you can either accept it willingly or we force you too…..<3….Ronnie

    • 255. John  |  March 22, 2010 at 7:34 am

      “I am capable of drawing my own conclusions without the help of a . . . biased research group,” and yet the only research you’ve attempted to present has come from NARTH, whose sole reason for existence is feeding off and helping sustain the stigma attached to homosexuality by society.

      Just because you can’t find anything that proves 100% that sexual orientation is inborn, does not mean it isn’t. We’ve not proven 100% that cancer is not caused by demons, yet we don’t just assume people with cancer need exorcisms.

      Kids turning gay due to peer pressure? That’s a hoot! Peer pressure helps keep LGBT kids in the closet, pretending to be straight.

      I can tell you what “persuaded” me to be gay: male body structure appeals to me sexually; female body structure repulses me. No TV show or movie planted that notion in my head. When I hit puberty, I started realizing that I liked the way guys looked with no clothes on, and hated seeing unclothed females. I felt a strong sexual attraction to males and none to females. I had a girlfriend in 12th grade for six months and had absolutely no desire to have sex with her. I didn’t even think about it.

      Yes, it is difficult being gay. However, there is only ONE reason it is difficult: the condemnation of others.

      It’s good that you make it clear that your desires are by no means altruistic: you want your bloodline continued and you expect your children to provide you with grandkids. Many gay couples have and raise children, you know. If one or more of your kids turned out to be gay, was in a committed relationship and raising kids, would you shun those grandchildren because they might not be your bloodline?

      Just what are “all the other things that homosexuals cannot do?” Get legally married, perhaps? That’s the only thing I can think of, because anything else we can’t do stems from that legal distinction. All I can think, then, is you want your kids to be able to legally marry, therefore you don’t want them to be gay because then you wouldn’t want to be allowed to marry.

      You want your kids to be monogamous. That’s great; I am a firm believer in monogamy and do my best to encourage it in my work with LGBT teens. Not all homosexuals are promiscuous, however, and, SHOCK, far from all heterosexuals are monogamous, going by statistics on adultery.

      When you deny gays the right to marry, you are saying our relationships mean nothing. In effect, you discourage monogamy then criticize gays for not being monogamous.

      It’s nice that you say that you do not “wish harm on homosexuals.” Does lying always come that easily for you? After all the very next paragraph, you state that you “don’t doubt it’s hard,” and “maybe even harmful,” to try to change a homosexual into a heterosexual. So you don’t wish us harm, you just think we should undergo harmful treatment with little-to-no chance of actual success.

      Being LGBT is not an “affliction,” and the angst is born of society’s hatred and scorn of us, perpetrated by folks just like you, just as you continue to do here.

      • 256. John  |  March 22, 2010 at 7:44 am

        I should’ve added that I had my first crush on another boy several years prior to hitting puberty. And I recall being intrigued by other boys’ parts from probably at least age five or six. Girls? Never.

      • 257. Ronnie  |  March 22, 2010 at 8:33 am

        John, you know what is a funny thing…is how does that “TV or the movies or on the internet”…..apply to people who came before all those things, say 100 years ago, or 2000 years ago so much that they put it in a fictional book called the Bible?…..that notion implies that Homosexuality is a modern only thing…..and how does that apply to the farm boy in middle america that spends all day working on a farm and doesn’t watch tv or see mainstream movies or use the internet on the regular but identifies as gay?….it doesn’t….and if it comes from parenting then where is the proof?…..There are kids who are raised by same gender couples who grow up to be straight… is that explained?…..

        As she says that she makes known that her intentions are to make anything and everything LGBTQQIA Illegal…..yeah good luck with that….it’ll never happen in this country…..and notice she insults all the parents of LGBTQQI and A kids by blaming it on parenting……going for the trifecta there are ya?……hmmmm…just like the Uganda Genocide Bill….guilty by association…..just think about that one Melostit (I mean Melissa)……<3….Ronnie

      • 258. John  |  March 22, 2010 at 8:49 am

        The first time I remember seeing gays on TV was when I was a little kid; two men wanted to get married on an episode of Love American Style. That was just silly, of course! Men don’t get married! I was probably seven or eight. I don’t recall seeing anything else on TV ’til I was 13, when The Naked Civil Servant (bio pic on Quentin Crisp) was shown on PBS (I watched it twice, neither time in the presence of my parents).

        Seeing as I knew, though denied, I was gay by the time I was 11, I don’t see TV as a big influence.

        Of course, there were gay actors on TV that played rather campy roles, and I thought they were a hoot. Paul Lynde as Uncle Arthur on Bewitched, Charles Nelson Reilly on lots of things, etc. I also loved guys playing women, like Flip Wilson and his character Geraldine Jones. I would’ve been exposed to this stuff probably starting around age six, but I certainly knew nothing of homosexuality at the time. Lynde and Reilly were funny and naughty; Geraldine was sassy and just a riot, she still makes me laugh to this day (when I watch reruns on BET).

        Now, admittedly, the internet has existed since 1969, but I had no access to it in any respect ’til 1989, when I was finally coming to terms with my sexuality at age 26. At that point, it was still primarily a tool used by colleges and universities, not the general public.

        Beyond all that, though, me loving Uncle Arthur on Bewitched didn’t make me think, “Boy, that Uncle Arthur sure makes me want to suck on a penis!

    • 259. fiona64  |  March 22, 2010 at 7:42 am

      Melissa/Kay/George wrote: I can’t find anything that says conclusively that homosexuality is a completely inborn trait.

      Let me help:

      You’re welcome. Again.


      • 260. Michelle Evans  |  March 22, 2010 at 9:25 am

        Thank you for posting these links. One that stood out right away and that Melissa should read and take to heart, says the following:

        <<Long discredited are theories that parenting – one mid-20th century theory held that boys raised by a domineering mother with a distant father were more likely to be gay – has anything to do with sexual orientation.

        <<Evidence of that, said Michael Bailey, a professor of psychology at Northwestern University in Illinois, comes from studies of genetically male infants born with malformed or ambiguous genitals. In many such cases, surgeons would construct a vagina, and instruct parents to raise the child as a girl, with no knowledge of his medical history.

        <<As adults, those prenatally male/postnatally female people were virtually all attracted to women, Bailey said.


      • 261. fiona64  |  March 23, 2010 at 8:00 am

        Here is the article on reciprocal altruism that I promised:

        BTW, Melissa, your implication that any woman who wears a tuxedo is a lesbian amused me no end.

        Fiona (who has indeed worn a tuxedo …)

    • 262. Bob  |  March 22, 2010 at 12:40 pm

      Hi my friend, Melissa, I think we’re slowly getting a little closer to your truth, I see some major movement in what you are saying know as opposed to your first post.
      First of all, you back tracked on the pope thing, because you already admitted your history with that, and that none of us is a clean slate, once he’s diddled with our minds, as I mentioned before you can get help with cleansing yourself of that insidious mind training, the more you try and prove it doesn’t affect you, the more it reinforces it’s stranglehold, if that weren’t true, you would not even be talking about it. I know I confronted you regarding your denial, which is what brought it to your attention. And I know you want to own your mind and your thoughts, I’m cheering for you, you can do it.

      Thanks for getting honest about your fear of your children becoming gay, what mother wouldn’t want what you do. Fear is a typical human experience no one is spared from , it helps to name it, and look at it. This is much more healthy than your original posts where you assured us your children would not be gay because of the way you raised them. Naming your fear, makes you stronger, a lot of people think the opposite’

      I accept that you do not mean harm to us, or your cousin who in the course of this dialog has moved from possibly being gay,to this post where you say “I don’t treat my cousin badly because he IS gay” also some positive movement and acceptance on your part. I’m encouraged that you don’t talk badly about him to others. My friend can you take this a baby step forward, rather than not treating him badly, could you try and treat him with respect and kindness, could you really work at having a conversation with him. Really Melissa, I think that’s where you want to go with this, creating your own loving family.
      As for those of us on here in spite of your desire not to, you have inflicted pain, insults and harm. and you are able to stop doing that, you just haven’t realized that calling us an affliction, is the same accusation the POPE levels against us, almost identical words.
      Finally Melissa, what you don’t want for your children could be replaced with a focus on what you do want, again same as any mother, loving manogomous relationships producing grandchildren. What you do want, will not be brought about by changing laws that make our lives more difficult (I’m happy that you have some inkling of how difficult we have it)
      Melissa have courage, stop projecting your fears onto us, but realize they are inside you, because that’s what you have been doing, the fear sometimes is unwanted feeling, which makes us feel bad, so we push it out onto others and fight it there, like if you could get me to change you think you would have conquered the fear, but Melissa no matter how many people you could convince to partake in harmful therapy, none of it would change the possibility that you may be confronted with convincing one of your own flesh and blood to do the same.
      By projecting so much into the future, you take away from the opportunity to LOVE your beautifull children right now today ,in their innocence and get to know them.
      If the time came to deal with the FEAR you talk about, that would be the time to work with it, but it isn’t even real at this point.

      • 263. Melissa  |  March 23, 2010 at 7:44 am

        To Bob, Pam, Fiona and John…

        I realize that a lot of gay people believe that they were born gay, but none of them can really say that for sure, and from what I’ve read, the cause is at most multifactorial where environmental and social factors are never excluded.

        Sorry to offend with the words “normal” and “affliction,” I don’t see those as prejudicial terms as much as calling attention to the fact that homosexuals are different from the vast majority of the population and being different makes it a difficult thing to have to deal with whether it’s socially acceptable or not.

        As for my cousin, I don’t see the reason to talk with him about his sexuality. Interestingly, though, it seems like gay people like to talk about their sexuality or call attention to it. That’s one of the things that is really bothersome about this prom issue. Those girls could have come to the prom together even if they had to buy seperate tickets. But the one had to wear a tuxedo, essentially announcing to all of the prom guests, “look at us, we are lesbians!” I don’t really care that you’re lesbians, as long as you don’t do anything that makes my girls want to be lesbians.

        Am I selfish for wanting grand kids? Sure, but we are all selfish and I’m sure there is something evolution-based that makes having my bloodline continued appealing. Would I disown my kids are treat their adopted kids badly if the were gay? No. Would I discuss trying to help them not being gay? Sure. Force it on them? No. Wonder what could have been done to prevent them from becoming gay in the first place? Absolutely. Acknowledge their marriage? Ouch. That’s a toughie. But that’s why my focus is on preventing it in the first place so that I don’t have to deal with those issues some day. I think a lot of we heterosexuals feel that way. That’s why the prospect of teaching it in schools is a hot button. We don’t want gay kids, but we wouldn’t not love them because they are. And that’s why it’s easy to compare it with alcholism or other addictions that have a genentic component and a behavioral component.

      • 264. Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  March 23, 2010 at 7:57 am

        If you were truly sorry to offend anyone here, then you would either adjust your teminology to fit the TRUTH, rather than continuing to call adult consensual loving relationships and committed marriages afflictions. There is a difference between being gay and being alcolholic, but you rare to warp[ed by the ANAAZI in VAtican City and your exsposeure to his predecessors to admit that or to even consider it. So until you do join the HUMAN RACE and stop acting like a spoiled rotten brat, or are you in reaLITY mAGpIE gALLAGHER, WHO IS SO ASHAMED OF HER HUSBAND SHE CANNOT EVEN TAKE HIM TO EVENTS THAT SUPPOSEDLY SUPPORT MARRIAGE?

      • 265. fiona64  |  March 23, 2010 at 7:59 am

        Dear Melissa:

        I ask you this as one straight woman to another: why would you disbelieve both anecdotal and empirical evidence that demonstrates that one’s sexuality is inherent, regardless of where it falls on the Kinsey scale? You are willing to believe, for instance, that straight people are born that way, yet cannot believe that GLBT people are? How is that possible?

        If being GLBT is a “choice,” why isn’t being straight also a choice? As I already related, there was no “choice” for me: I just thought Paul McCartney was cuter than Petula Clarke. I have no reason do doubt my GLBT friends.

        I did forget to include one important link yesterday:

        Are you now going to try to tell us that people “choose” hypothalmic differences?

        Really, I find your statements offensive. “We don’t want gay kids.” “We should find a way to prevent this.” Etc., etc., etc. You make it sound like all heterosexuals feel this way. How ridiculous. Thanks, though, for demonstrating the very conditional nature of your love.

        BTW, one of the links that for some reason did not show up yesterday had to do with the evolutionary reasons for homosexuality. I’ll post it again separately so that it doesn’t get hung up in moderation. Your idea that “wanting grandkids is all about evolution” makes me laugh, since I suspect your grandkids will be really embarrassed at the side of history on which Grandma stood … sort of like the grandkids of the anti-civil rights folks in the 1960s.


      • 266. fiona64  |  March 23, 2010 at 8:02 am

        Reposted due to misplaced response:

        Here is the article on reciprocal altruism that I promised:

        BTW, Melissa, your implication that any woman who wears a tuxedo is a lesbian amused me no end.

        Fiona (who has indeed worn a tuxedo …)

      • 267. fiona64  |  March 23, 2010 at 8:05 am

        Dear Richard:

        Melissa is using what I call the “Dad apology” — “I’m sorry you were offended.” It’s a crock, of course. What’s she’s really sorry about is that she’s being called on the carpet to explain herself and can’t do so without falling back on religious dogma that she tries to pretend she doesn’t follow.


      • 268. Ronnie  |  March 23, 2010 at 8:05 am

        To Melissa the psychic

        2 people here have said we do not believe that we were born Gay….WE KNOW… choose to ignore that and ASSume that you know what goes in our heads…or it it that you 100% believe that we are wrong about our own feelings….again condescending and narcissistic…..

        It doesn’t really whether it is hard or not….Just deal with it….why is it so hard you to mind your own business and stop putting you nose in other people lives?….why do you think you have the right to control what other people do?…..WHY DO YOU THINK YOU ARE BETTER THEN US?……

        In that 3rd paragraph of your stupid little book that you seem to enjoy writing… basically say that seeing somebody wear a tux is going to make you gay…..WOW….if you think by wearing certain types of close makes you gay…you just might be a red neck…..That is were you are wrong…they were told that not even allowed to be at the prom together…..and you have right to tell people what to wear….Since when does looking at something means that all of a sudden you are going to want to be that….are you really that dense?….do you have any brains whatsoever?…..Do you look at something or someone Melissa and say oh I want to be that too?….yeah ok….nice try with that one idiot…..

        No the reason your cousin has any respect for you is because you probably have not said these things to his face….that is one trait about you hateros is that you don’t and you won’t say these exact words to the person….

        Melissa why did you ignore what I said about your bloodline being continued even if you have a gay child?….In-vitro and surrogacy requires the sperm/dna/genetics of the father and/or mother…..

        If your son is gay and chooses to have a baby via surrogacy….he can use his sperm….therefore….your bloodline continues….

        If your daughter is gay and chooses to not only have a baby but carry the baby…she can use her egg…therefore…your bloodline continues…..

        It really is that simple…DEAL WITH IT……<3….Ronnie

      • 269. Ronnie  |  March 23, 2010 at 8:12 am

        hehehehe….fiona64….i love it…its got the word sorry in it….but its not exactly an apology….and somehow….it is our fault that we were offended……pft…give me a break…..<3…Ronnie

      • 270. Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  March 23, 2010 at 8:26 am

        @fiona. Yes,I realize she is using the “dad apology,” and that is a big part of what makes it so blatantly offensive. ANd as for her comment about women wearing tuxedos, I have this to say. I graduated from high school in 1981, and I remember my high school’s show choir, Reflections. The outfits for both the men and the women in Reflections were tuxedos. Yes, the women had the choice of a floor length tuxedo skirt or tuxedo pants, but there was only one lesbian in Reflections. Of course, nobody had a problem with that. Also, my husband’s daughter, who is straight and has two of the most wonderful children in the world, has a second job where she is required to wear a tuxedo. And I guess Melissa has never taken a close look at the full formal dress uniforms that all five branches of our military have. Regardless of whether you are a man or a woman, when you are in your full formal dress uniform, you are wearing a tuxedo. The color of it will vary based upon which branch of the service you are in, but it is still a tuxedo. So Melissa, grow up and join the real world, young lady. Or as I said earlier, are you in reality MagPie Gallagher, who won’t even prove that she has a husband by taking him with her to all of her programs that supposedly encourage marriage, nor will she wear a wedding ring. Now, granted whether or not you wear a ring is a choice, but if I am proud enough of my husband to want to be seen in public with him, and ito wear his ring, and if MagPie is suppposedly so strongly in favor of marriage, then she should be willing to be seen in public with her husband, and should wear his ring. Otherwise she is sending mixed signals. Well she is sending mixed signals anyway, but that is a whole other can of worms.

      • 271. Bob  |  March 23, 2010 at 9:49 am

        Hi Melissa, I’m encourage by you opening your responses to include the others who have been communicating with you, particularily I hope you would engage further with the other mothers, like Fiona, and Pam, motherhood is a common bond.

        Regarding your cousin, where did you get the notion that my encouragement to befriend him, had to do with discussion about sexuality. Quiet the opposite, I am enocouraging you to be nice to him, be friends, embrace him as family, rather than just not saying anything bad about him. Sex seems to be a block for you, we don’t talk about our sexual intimacies in friendly conversations with family, that’s what you will discover if you cozy up to him a the next family funciton. You might actuallly have an interest in common.

        You’re not selfish for wanting grandkids, I hope you are blessed in that way.and that they bring you much joy in your old age. But remember what you put out is what comes back to you, send out LOVE. acceptance and understanding,

        Which I think you are struggling with here on this site, and I admire you for that.

        You have much more learning to do, especially around the hot button issue which so many heterosexuals are dealing with, (the notion that a school could teach a child to become homosexual) this is the very crux of misinformaion that somehow needs to be brought to the fore and dealt with, because it simply is not true.and could alievate many fears.

        And thanks for admitting that the way you cope with this in your mind is to cling to the notion that it is an illness like alcoholism, because this gives you some hope (FALSELY) that this could all go away.

        I love you Melissa, thanks so much for speaking your mind and sharing your fears.

        Continue learning, I’m so glad you brought Pam out of lurking mode, because I see her as a very brilliant person, who shares the common bond of motherhood, and extended an invitation to you to ask her questions. It would be my hope that you may continue a dialog with her, and a dream that you may form a friendship that would last, in the event you would at some point in the future need support for anything that may arise that may be an OUCH for you.

        Love always, chees Bob

      • 272. Ronnie  |  March 23, 2010 at 12:00 pm

        Bob, Melissa is nothing but a cyber stalking trash troll….notice not denying it….a human with a heart and a soul would deny being all the things that not just me but several people have called her….but she insists on allowing them to be true by not denying them…..She has yet to post one thing that isn’t ant-gay, on topic, and doesn’t engage in ANY of dialogue about anything that is going on in this country…..she has done nothing but talk AT people…..even when directing at one person she does not answer ANY questions and continues to talk AT them…..She posts one thing a day that is 100% harassment, insulting and offensive and has yet to directly apologize but demands that we do because she doesn’t like what some of us had called her…..Well we didn’t like what she had to say but its ok that she has a problem with it and we can’t….she’s a hypocritical b!tch…..

        I get the feeling that she deletes everything she doesn’t want to read….By not watching the video and answering my questions she has now left herself open to the full consequences of her actions….By ignoring it she is admitting that she is a homophobic Nazi and deserves to be treated like one…..She wanted an enemy…well now she has one…..

        “Sorry to offend” my @$$…..not only did she use scare quotes…she has no place to say that none of us can say that for sure….I have said it for sure…what? am I wrong because for some unfounded reason she knows that she is right….again condescending, egocentric, and narcissistic…..she is telling us what we think as if she is a psychic and a mind reader……Of course she doesn’t see those words as prejudicial terms because she is not gay…they are offensive to us and it makes her feel good and better about herself to say those things….another Q that was asked by several people she has yet to answer ……

        We told her right after she posted them the first post days ago…that we were offended by them….and she continued to repeat it over and over and over again….and we repeatedly asked her to stop…..and she responded by posting them again…..after several days of nothing……..she comes back with a very disgustingly offensive comparison…that right afterwords we told her it was offensive and she continued to post it over and over again….

        Then she has the nerve to tell me that I am wrong for calling her the things I called her as if I wasn’t provoked…as if she is allowed to say those things but I’m not allowed to voice my opinion and anger at her for offending me and those like me….Why is she allowed to be offended but I’m not?…another Q she has yet to answer that was asked by several people….not just me….

        currently @ comment number 253 she has the nerve to demand that we stop saying something about her, because for some reason she already said she’s not catholic and I quote…”I am capable of drawing my own conclusions”….but apparently we (the gays are not)….and you know the whole time we have asked her to stop saying things about us….but we are supposed to stop…yeah ok…hypocrite….at least 5 times I said I don’t hate her and that I am angry at her…I also admitted to not liking her as a person….but over and over again she says I hate her….again why do we have to stop saying things about her but she doesn’t?…..egocentric..yeah?

        She has yet to answer the question that ALL of us have asked her…….HOW WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF SOMEBODY CALLED YOU THOSE THINGS AND SAID THEM ABOUT YOU?……because apparently those words can never apply to her…..that is why she doesn’t answer it…..

        She managed to turn this entire thread about her….me me me…why couldn’t she just post something about the topic of the thread?….instead of harassing us some more….she has no intentions of learning anything or she would have asked a Q about Love Across borders..instead of dragging over an argument that was already settled on another thread….she stayed OT by posting one of the things that would anger us the most…all the practices of a cyber troll according to IC3….

        You also notice that not once did she respond to my speech about the coming revolution….my guess is that she doesn’t think it will happen or that it is even possible…since she didn’t respond…..If what has happened in the past week is not enough evidence enough of what is about to come…..then she really is delusional and has no knowledge of what historically happened during all the rights movements that have shaped our country today……People like her need to start taking us seriously…and they need to start realizing that this is not going away…..I was raised to NEVER take no for an answer…..and NOBODY is going to stop me from getting 100% of everything I want….not even Melissa….keep pushing us….and eventually we will strike back….

        I will NEVER respect anybody who calls me those things and then has the nerve to get offended when I call them on it and return the gesture and demands that I do not return the gesture… is a two-way street…if she can’t handle the backlash…..then like I said…maybe she should choose her words wisely before posting them ….<3….Ronnie

      • 273. Michelle Evans  |  March 23, 2010 at 2:31 pm

        Melissa has never once actually taken one thing any one of us has said to heart, and she has not once directly answered even one question.

        She dances around each issue that we raise, by ignoring the central question and continually telling us that it is we who are wrong, and that she could never be wrong.

        She talks of how we “believe” we are LGBT, but she obviously “knows” we are just deluding ourselves. With that in mind, I will once again try and ask her some basic questions. I sure all of us would like to see her answers. I will even write it in a simple format that Melissa can copy and paste in her reply. With that said:

        1. Melissa, how do you “know” you are heterosexual?

        2. Do you believe you can change and become a lesbian?

        3. Do you believe in science and the scientific method?

        4. Do you believe the Earth is relatively young (10,000 or so years old or younger) or 4.2 billion years old as is shown by scientific methodology.

        5. Do you believe that human beings evolved over a long period of time from earlier life forms or that they were placed here fully formed?

        6. Do you believe that LGBT people are actually human beings?

        7. Do you dismiss the fact that science has shown that there are at least thousands of species on Earth today where being LGBT is inherent in a small percent of those species, or that all species besides humans are always heterosexual?

        I think this is a good start, and I ask others here to pose similar questions to Melissa in the same type of format, so she will not have to wade through individual posts to find the questions buried in each.

        And Melissa, we really don’t care how you answer these questions, only that you have the courtesy to share you opinions. We are not forcing you to believe any which way–that is up to you to believe and to share. However, if you chose not to answer any of these questions it shows very clearly that you do not actually wish to have a dialogue, but instead wish to come to this site for the sole purpose of incitement of a very good group of people.

      • 274. Ronnie  |  March 23, 2010 at 2:41 pm

        I care about how she answers…..I suggest that she take into consideration what WE have ALL said was offensive….she should choose her words wisely and be prepared for the backlash if she CHOOSES to continue with the type of words she has been using….and not belly ache when we do it and call her on it…..If she wants us to be respectful or even semi-decent to her….then she has to do the same… works both ways……<3….Ronnie

      • 275. Dan Hess  |  March 23, 2010 at 4:04 pm

        Well, if she won’t answer them, I’ll answer them from her perspective. =P

        1. Melissa, how do you “know” you are heterosexual?
        “Well, obviously heterosexuals are the natural state, and I’m natural, so I must be heterosexual.”
        2. Do you believe you can change and become a lesbian?
        “If I wanted to, but why would I want to be a part of such a disease-ridden and immoral demographic?”
        3. Do you believe in science and the scientific method?
        “They’re obviously not very useful; I mean, they don’t even call homosexuality a mental disorder anymore.”
        4. Do you believe the Earth is relatively young (10,000 or so years old or younger) or 4.2 billion years old as is shown by scientific methodology.
        “I don’t really care how old it is, nor do I appreciate your bringing up religion when I’m just using my good ol’ common sense.”
        5. Do you believe that human beings evolved over a long period of time from earlier life forms or that they were placed here fully formed?
        “See #4”
        6. Do you believe that LGBT people are actually human beings?
        “Of course they’re human beings, they’re just very very sick and need to be cured of their afflictions so they don’t spread it to my children. I want grandchildren, after all, and I can’t have those if my kids are gay. Plus it’d make me look like a bad parent if they didn’t think exactly what I told them to think.”
        7. Do you dismiss the fact that science has shown that there are at least thousands of species on Earth today where being LGBT is inherent in a small percent of those species, or that all species besides humans are always heterosexual?
        “So just because animals do it you think you should? Humans are supposed to be BETTER than animals; after all, we’re thinking and rational, and we have ‘common sense.'”

        …Ye gods, that was hard. I feel dirty just for typing it.

      • 276. Ronnie  |  March 23, 2010 at 4:11 pm

        BWAAAAAAAAAA….Dan Hess….you owe me a new iKeyboard……<3….Ronnie

      • 277. Michelle Evans  |  March 23, 2010 at 10:04 pm

        Yeah, Dan, you are probably pretty close to the mark with “her” answers. Notice how she has failed to jump in and clarify anything. To be expected, and shows her true intent. She doesn’t want to learn anything, only spout her beliefs and run away to hide in her own fantasy world of perfection.

        It’s funny how she really doesn’t understand all this. Like Ronnie, Kirill, and everyone else here, we didn’t need to be taught about LGBT, or recruited into it, we just are.

        In my case, the word transgender didn’t even exist as far as I know until I was in my 20s, and yet I knew what was going on when I was 3! My parents never taught me anything, and I certainly didn’t have access to the internet (since it had yet to be invented!!) For so many years, I thought I was the only person in the world that felt as I did since I had no idea that anyone else like me might even exist.

        For Melissa, I can only say that it must be nice to be so absolutely certain that you know all the “facts” about something of which you have no direct experience, and to which you have no want to learn. I think the heart of the matter is that she lacks an essential ingredient of being truly human. It is the emotion called Empathy. This would allow her to understand at least that others may not be exactly like her, even if she has not had the experience herself.

        Another theory is that she may, in fact, be lesbian herself, as we have found that the stronger someone protests something, it is often proven that that person is actually trying to deny within themselves what is real. (See the movie OutRage!)

    • 278. Pam  |  March 22, 2010 at 2:11 pm

      Being left-handed was once considered an “affliction,” but now there are left-handed desks in schools. I think left-handedness is just another variety found in humanity. If you spoke with enough gays, you’d find that we realized our attraction early on, and we were never “recruited.” Falling in love is natural; realizing that intimate companionship is only possible with the same sex is natural–not forced or chosen. Common sense would say, how do I know what other people experience without asking? Forget the studies; ask us! I’m gay and very happy with my life; I work with children and teens, and have never had an STD. And I know hundreds of others like me, many with adopted or surrogate children of their own, living very happy and productive lives. Legalizing gay marriage will not make more people gay!! But it will let gay folks (who will never stop being born that way) have more secure lives.

      • 279. Pam  |  March 22, 2010 at 2:25 pm

        Oh, and by the way, I’m married to a wonderful woman (together–and monogamous–for 12 years now)! And marriage in Connecticut has made our lives much better, in so many ways, not the least of which has been the way others respect our relationship.

      • 280. Ronnie  |  March 22, 2010 at 2:39 pm

        Ugg….left handed desks….so annoying….(I’m right handed)….Perfectly healthy and clean gay 25yo guy here…No stds…I have no desire to be promiscuous…..I want to settle down, get married to a man, have 2 kids…..hopefully one of those 2 kids will want to be a fashion designer so I have someone to leave my business too……So true Pam…..instead of ASSuming and using second and third person hearsay….ask us….and unlike Melostit we will answer the Q’s……unfortunately we have repeatedly said these things to her and she refuses to acknowledge them and answer the Q’s and talks AT us but demands that we acknowledge what she says as fact and that she is right and we are wrong…..pift…….like I said she’s condescending, egocentric, and narcissistic……and doesn’t deny it for that matter…..but at this point it doesn’t matter that she denies it….its been proven……so sad…..<3….Ronnie

      • 281. Monty  |  March 22, 2010 at 2:44 pm

        Hey, us left-handed people deserve the same rights you do. If you don’t like left-handed desks, then don’t sit in one and shut up :P

      • 282. Ronnie  |  March 22, 2010 at 2:59 pm

        LOL….No you see Monty….I’m for Desk Equality…..everyone has a right to a FULL desk….I don’t hate left handed people…I have left handed friends….both of my parents are left handed…..see 2 wrongs do make a right….bwaaaaa…..If my kids are born left handed I will support them 99.9% because I can’t control that….I just hope that when they are old enough to come out to me and be like…..”Dad….I’m left handed….I don’t that’s that’s just the way GaGa made me”…… first I will probably be like…..”What?!….Oh Lady…Oh Lady GaGa no…not left Lady….NO NO you ain’t no lefty….you been hanging out with left people”……”But dad I’m your son…don’t you love me?”…”You’re right son….I mean you’re left but you’re right you should marry whatever handedness and sit at a full desk like everybody else”………My name is Ronnie and I love my Left Son!”……..<3…Ronnie

    • 283. K!r!lleXXI  |  March 23, 2010 at 5:42 pm


      Lemme tell ya somethin’, sweetheart… I’m a 25-year-old gay man, and I live in Russia, a very homophobic place where people actually pretend there is no such thing as gays: nobody talks about gays, there are no movies or TV series with gay characters, just plain nothing. And I don’t know a single gay person here, not one, and never knew anyone who’s gay in person… There are no sources of influence for me to become gay… I didn’t even know what it is for many years… And yet I figured it out by looking at those ads on TV, ads of “topless” men advertising shaving cremes and razors… So, what? You’re gonna blame Gillette? Or advertisers? What if I were to go to men’s baths and figure it out there? Who would you to blame? I certainly didn’t have internet 6 years ago when I realized I’m gay… So, no gay porn, no weird priests (I wasn’t an altar boy), no nothing… No influence whatsoever!

      I’m trying to say that your arguments are very far from the truth, not even in the vicinity of truth! And yet you still persist to say that homosexuality is an acquired affliction that can be prevented. What’s your prove? Nothing. There is no proof. Scientists maybe were not able to prove that it is just a normal variation of human sexuality, but they also failed to prove it is a disease of some sort! They’ve studied homosexuality for decades, and didn’t find anything wrong… What is an affliction? What is a disease? It is a pathology, something that changes bodily or mental functions in a way that some function cannot be performed anymore, or its performance is diminished, and it harm individual’s body or complicates his/her life directly (not like it happens indirectly with gays when the society is the actual source of harm for gay people because of stigmatization). Homosexuality does not diminish anything, it does not deprive people of anything, it’s all about making a certain choice of sexual partners. That’s it! That simple!

      And here you’re gonna say, “How about children? Homosexuals cannot have children!” — that’s a lie! Homosexuals can and do have children! Lesbians bear their own children using artificial insemination or just have sex with some men. Gay men have their own biological children by contributing semen to lesbian women, or to straight women who want to have these gay men’s children, or just have sex with those women purely for reproductive purposes. It all happens in real life. How is that different from step-parenting in families with heterosexual families (where one of the parents is only adoptive one at best)? And adoption is one of the possibilities available for many people who cannot have children of their own, but they are not being discriminated against because of that on any level… why gays should be?

      I don’t understand your fixation on bloodlines and biological parenting… What if your kids or grandkids are rendered infertile? You won’t encourage them to adopt? You will treat those adopted kids like they are not really a part of your family? This is offensive, and not only to gays, but also to many, many, many straight people. And it is even more offensive to try to turn gay people straight using a simple explanation that you want them to reproduce naturally… People are people, they are not some animals we use for breeding… We have our minds and our free will to decide for ourselves if we even want to reproduce or be parents (and, mind you, not every opposite-sex couple decides to have children or even to raise children), so maybe you should stop being so controlling of other people’s lives and have a look at homosexuality as something that doesn’t actually pose any real threat to anyone?!

      As for STDs… Well, I’ll only say that promiscuity is the greatest factor that contributes to spreading those diseases, and germs do not ask anyone if they are gay or straight, they just spread wherever they can, so, in fact, the most danger is coming from straight people and straight sex because there are 95% of straight people and only 5% of gay ones. Gay people are no more promiscuous than straight ones. In fact, if you want to know, as I’ve mentioned, I’m a gay man and I’m still a virgin because I’m not a promiscuous person, I’m not looking for meaningless sexual pleasures (I could have and I would have found those things even in Russia, where I live, I know for certain there are gays here and I’ve seen ads from my city on Craigslist for men seeking men — there is a certain community of promiscuous gays, but I’m not interested in that), I’m looking for love and happiness (and I think I’ve found it recently, so I’m happy now and cannot be as angry at you as Ronnie… Ronnie, you need love, seriously!). So, I’m a typical example of a gay person who didn’t have any influences to “become” gay, who seeks love and committed relationship, who’s not being promiscuous and exposed to STDs… and still you want me to be in the same group of people who are supposedly “sick” and should be “cured” of gay… This is persecution for no good reason but animus! And I want you to understand that this is what you’re actually preaching!

      –Kirill, Russia

  • 284. Ronnie  |  March 22, 2010 at 7:38 am

    To Melissa….watch this video….If you really have any interest in whats going on in this community…you will watch this video and then tell us, point by point , which of the character analysis does not apply to you….I 100% believe that you wish harm us…..Why is it that what you believe is right and what most of us believe is wrong?….You have yet to answer that question even though every single person including Bob has asked you that….An omission of denial is an admission to the accusation… there for just because you say it the second Q vitos the answer to the first Q…..

    So again….since you are so adamant at harassing this community to the point where it can be considered stalking and a cyber crime according to the IC3 devision of the FBI….and well by repeating yourself over and over again….it’s getting a little Psychoish…..I mean maybe if you answered the Q’s directly instead of insulting people…you may appear to me NORMAL and SANE….but….. to each its psycho own…. anyway…I digress….watch the video and tell us, point by point, which part fo the character analysis does not apply to you?….If you don’t answer…then we will all know that you are a Cyber Troll(look it up) with only the intentions to harass…..and then we will DEAL with you accordingly….I’m just asking for some simple answers….Whats wrong with that?…..<3….Ronnie:

    • 285. David Kimble  |  March 22, 2010 at 2:36 pm

      Thanx, Ronnie! That was precious! <3 David ROTFLMAO!

  • 286. jessica  |  March 22, 2010 at 11:58 am

    a big part of a recent seperation from a woman i married in newzealand was that she couldnt get in this country without a PHD or a million dollars so i could never see my family. it does affect lives..

  • 287. Shun  |  March 22, 2010 at 4:50 pm

    I was happy to see a post about UAFA finally…and then also happy to see so many comments…only to find most of them to be a debate with Melissa, whoever she is.

    I know that some people may not care for immigration at all, but these laws ARE affecting lives. Imagine if your partner was someone from another country. Imagine how you cannot be with him because this country is telling you that you are lesser than hetereosexual couples. I might take heat for this but same-sex American couples, even if they cannot get ‘married,’ can at least stay together physically for the most part in the country/home that they love. Binational couples don’t even get that chance.

    • 288. Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  March 22, 2010 at 4:57 pm

      Shun, you are right that those of us who are in marriages with other US nationals can stay together, even if our marriages are not recognized federally or even unrecognized in the states in which we live. And I am sorry that you have been exposed to Melissa’s hatred and fear, along with the debate that this has generated. YOur post simply brings to the front one more reason why we must all fight together for full equality, and must all join together for GENDA, the repeal of DADT, full incusion under UAFA, and the end of DOMA. And it is one more reason that we all need to begin scheduling Equality Rides, and why all of us need to take those Equality Rides from our local areas to Washington, DC, joining with the other Riders along the way, so that we show them just how many of us there are. We also need to all get together and vote in EVERY election and make our voices heard. WE must refuse to be silent and we must refuse to back down until justice is served for all of us.

      • 289. Ronnie  |  March 22, 2010 at 5:14 pm

        CAN I GET A HALLELU?!!!!!!!!!…….<3….Ronnie

      • 290. Shun  |  March 22, 2010 at 11:41 pm

        Richard, thank you for your thoughtful response. I agree with you completely and also believe that our community must stick together to fight all these injustices.

        I’m embarrassed to say that I didn’t know about Equality Rides until you mentioned it. From my quick search on wiki, it seems to be about fighting for the rights of students on campuses nationwide? It seems to be a very important movement. However, I was wondering if you were talking about some bigger one that aims to attack other issues? Or were you just talking about the students issues?

  • 291. Dan Hess  |  March 22, 2010 at 5:26 pm

    I’m left-handed and I hate left-handed desks. They’re obnoxious and I don’t know anyone who actually uses them. But yeah, LEFT POWER!!!

  • 292. Polydactyl  |  March 23, 2010 at 12:06 pm

    A little tardy on my part, but thank you for this article. It is horrible to have to make the decision between emigrating to a country neither of you want to live in, comitting visa fraud, or simply never being able to join the one you love.

    It is good to see this issue is not being ignored. The willingness to accept civil unions on a state-by-state basis has angered and frustrated me for years because it does not touch this problem.

    Finally, we are no longer willing to accept substandard “rights” that are utterly inferior to the ones our heterosexual counterparts enjoy with unquestioned privilege.

  • 293. Chuck  |  March 24, 2010 at 6:41 am

    As much as I wish that Obama would take a stance on this, this one will probably only be resolved in the Supreme Court as a equal employment rights law-suit appeal (a very long drawn out proceeding).

  • 294. Melissa  |  March 25, 2010 at 6:03 am

    Hi Michelle –

    I’ve received a lot of questions here in some very long comments and it’s impossible for me to cull through all of them, separate the rhetorical from the legit, the relevant from the non-relevant, the rants from the reasonable. Since you’ve been kind enough to list your questions, here are my answers:

    1. Melissa, how do you “know” you are heterosexual?
    I’ve never thought about it, really. I know that I’m attracted to men, not women.

    2. Do you believe you can change and become a lesbian?
    I’ve been heterosexual since my teens, so I doubt that I would ever lose my attraction to men. Could I enter into a relationship with a woman? Possibly – depends on the circumstances in my life and the psychological forces I’m dealing with. For example, I can see how getting raped by a man might change how I feel towards men and open my mind up to being with someone who could not rape me.
    3. Do you believe in science and the scientific method?
    I have a bachelor’s degree in biology, enough said?

    4. Do you believe the Earth is relatively young (10,000 or so years old or younger) or 4.2 billion years old as is shown by scientific methodology.
    The latter.

    5. Do you believe that human beings evolved over a long period of time from earlier life forms or that they were placed here fully formed?
    Evolved from an ancestor in common with apes.

    6. Do you believe that LGBT people are actually human beings? This kind of question is why I don’t respond directly to most posts.

    7. Do you dismiss the fact that science has shown that there are at least thousands of species on Earth today where being LGBT is inherent in a small percent of those species, or that all species besides humans are always heterosexual?
    I don’t know what’s inherent in other species. I’ve seen male dogs try to hump male dogs or stuffed animals. Is that the sort of behavior you want to compare your behavior with? Human beings find all sorts of ways to get off with other animals, objects, etc., and I suppose some women would like to bring their carrot to the prom. Being able to make reasoned choices against our natural instincts is part of what makes us civilized. So, for example, Ronnie might instinctively want to kill me, but he won’t.

    • 295. John  |  March 25, 2010 at 7:02 am

      Oops . . . meant to attach my response to this one.


      1. Yet you dismiss the fact that we know we are attracted to the same and/or both sexes?

      3. That’s not really an answer.

      7. Male dogs humping each other is often a way of exerting dominance (i.e., rape), particularly when you take into account that neutered male dogs, like our younger one, do it.

      What we’re talking about is non-human species exhibiting both same-sex copulation (as opposed to rape) and same-sex, long-term pair bonding.

      Denying our sexual orientation is not a “reasoned choice” against our natural instincts. It is a choice society attempts to force us to make and one that is nothing but detrimental to our emotional, mental and even physical well-being, as stress can cause medical problems. Is it also detrimental to those around us, especially if we feel compelled to attempt to straighten ourselves out by marrying someone of the opposite gender.

      The “reasoned choice” regarding our natural instincts regardling sexuality should be that each of us is an individual. We are not all heterosexual and shouldn’t be forced to pretend we are, against our natural instincts.

      Of course, other natural instincts are irrational fear of that which is different and a need to denigrate others to make one’s self feel better. These are natural instincts that YOU need to make a “reasoned choice” against.

    • 296. Ronnie  |  March 25, 2010 at 7:33 am

      Melissa….they are all relevant you just choose not to answer them and its insulting…..enough said…..none of them are rhetorical….we are not idiots like you….when asked a Q we answer…its called manners….GET SOME….if they were rhetorical we would say they are rhetorical…..Get over yourself……

      1. Well the same goes for me. I KNOW that I am attracted to men, not women.

      2. Again same. I KNEW I was homosexual since my teens….but I don’t doubt…I KNOW that I will never lose my attraction to men.

      3. Oh my GaGa…it has a BA degree in biology….means nothing…..glad you have some sort of edu. yet do not appear to use it well AT ALL.

      4. That’s not an answer….bio has nothing to do with the age of the Earth.

      5. So if we are in common with apes then we should be allowed to marry them as well….hehehee….that would be funny

      6. No answer other then I choose to be disrespectful and just ignore it……really?…..Really?!!

      7. You want to test that theory?

      Since you are unable actually read and sort though things like an adult I guess I have to DUMB things down for you as well….ok “Lenny”?…..

      1. What about our Kids and by “our” I mean LGBTQQI and A meaning straight allies?

      2. What about our rights?

      3. Why are you more important then me or us(LGBTQQIA)?

      4. Why do you think you are better then us?

      5. If marriage is “supposed” to be about procreation, then in that case anybody who cannot have children cannot get married either, yeah?

      6. Why can’t you just mind your own business and stop trying to control other peoples lives?

      7. Why is your opinion more important then ours therefore requiring respect and laws that support you while they discriminate against us?

      8. Why is what I believe wrong and what you believe is right and again deserving of respect and laws that protect your rights while taking mine away?

      9. You called us offensive things and we responded accordingly….you then told us that you were offended by what we called you….So the Q is why are you allowed to be offended but we are not?

      10. What do you not get or understand about what I said(not rants actual feelings that you seem all to happy to ignore) in comments 207, 209(reply to ur little hate speech 208), 210.

      11. In comment 210, paragraph 3, those Q’s are relevant to us, so act like a human and show respect and answer them.

      12. In my reply to insult #243 I reiterated what you said about “all humans only make decisions based on what ’s in between their legs?” So my Q is, do you believe that your V-JJ controls your heart and your brain?

      13. in reply to insult #253 I asked the following
      A.) Who do you think you are to tell us what to stop saying, i.e. that you may be religious.?
      B.) We asked you to stop calling us things several times before but you ignored that, continued to do it and then asked us to stop, so me Q is why should we do what you asked when you didn’t do what we asked?
      C.) Do you know how in-vitro and surrogacy works? Since you have a BIO “degree” you should know that your bloodline can still be carried through those methods and that that is one of the options that Gay people have we making the mature adult decision to have kids, yeah?
      D.) The constitution says we the people not we the straight people so here is the Q, If you do not want the constitution to protect us or our children, then don’t tax us. It really is that simple. What point of that do you not get?
      E.) I think you are a parasite trying to control my life and sucking everything that is free out of the land of the free, am I wrong because I’m not straight like you?
      F.) Why should we accommodate your beliefs?…Why should we allow you to tell us what to do?…..We are not your property…..we are not slaves….why do you continue to act like you have the right to tell us what to do?(again very simple Q’s to answer)

      14. How does that “TV or the movies or on the internet” apply to people who came before all those things, say 100 years ago, or 2000 years ago so much that they put it in a fictional book called the Bible? This is in reference to your its learned via those things mentioned.

      15. There are kids who are raised by same gender couples who grow up to be straight, how is that explained? (also in ref. to comment 253)

      16. Do you want everything LGBTQQIA to be illegal? Very simple Q.

      17. You said that looking at a lesbian couple will make your daughter want to be Gay so this next Q is relevant. Since when does looking at something means that all of a sudden you are going to want to be that?

      18. Do you actually read anything I post? I mean actually take into consideration that I took the time to express my feelings about what you said and then respond? I give you the respect of reading what you post even though it makes me sick and I take the time to
      respond? Why can’t you answer any of the Q’s.? We shouldn’t have to DUMB things down for you in # order. You are an adult and should be able to recognize a ?mark. You say you have a BA degree but you don’t act like it.

      19. Melissa, HOW WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF SOMEBODY CALLED YOU THOSE THINGS AND SAID THEM ABOUT YOU?(i’m not the only one that has asked you that several times)

      20. I asked you to watch the video (Trash Blast :Homophobes) and tell us what part of that character analysis point by point doesn’t apply to you. Very simple request) I’m thinking you didn’t. I also said by not responding it makes it the character analysis true? So again watch the video(its up above) and respond accordingly………<3…Ronnie

  • 297. David Kimble  |  March 25, 2010 at 6:44 am

    This is off-topic, but I thought it was important information, so will post it here. Recently, in Podunk, CA, where I live, I have been having discussions with people about healthcare reform. Sadly, most are not well informed. <3 David

    CLAIM: the government will decide what care people get.

    THE FACTS: Plenty of rationing already exists in the health care system. Insurance companies and employer benefit plans often limit a person's choices of medical services. For the uninsured, elective procedures are difficult to get, if not impossible. But reform would specifically bar some forms of rationing: Insurers would no longer discriminate against an individual with a pre-existing medical condition.

    The rationing argument ignited when former New York Lt. Gov. Betsy McCaughey wrote in an opinion piece that government research comparing the effectiveness of medical treatments would eventually limit seniors' access to services.

    But says the council overseeing the research is barred from issuing requirements on insurance coverage. President Obama says the research goal is to provide information to doctors and patients about what treatments may work best for a medical condition. And Julius Hobson, a health policy adviser for the law firm Bryan Cave in Washington, says private insurers would be more likely than Medicare to use that treatment information to make rationing-style decisions.

    CLAIM: If you like your health plan, you can keep your health plan; if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor under reform.

    THE FACTS: President Obama has used this line often to tamp down fears about change. But keeping a health plan or a doctor isn't a guarantee even under the current insurance system. Employers now switch insurance plans frequently to get the best possible deal. Doctors, if dissatisfied, can drop out of health plans. So it's difficult to see how reform could ensure that individuals can keep their health plan or doctor.

    Obama's plan builds on the current job-based coverage system, and insurance provided by large employers may stay the same. But reform may mean some employers may choose to drop their current coverage and pay a penalty instead. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) says millions would gain job-based coverage under the House Democrats' legislation, and that millions would lose it.

    CLAIM: The House bill is entirely paid for by a combination of Medicare cuts and taxes, and won't add to the deficit.

    THE FACTS: The CBO says the House bill would add $239 billion to the deficit over 10 years, with that extra money reversing a scheduled Medicare pay cut to doctors. Democrats don't count that increase as part of the cost of reform, saying it's a separate issue.

    Obama has estimated that about $500 billion to $600 billion in Medicare and Medicaid savings can be achieved by restructuring the delivery system, establishing new ways of paying doctors, reducing waste, decreasing medical errors, increasing efficiency, and other changes.

    Long-term savings from such ''game-changers'' could be substantial, but would accrue over a 20- to 30-year timetable, says Josh Gordon, policy director for the Concord Coalition, a grassroots organization advocating fiscal responsibility.

    The reform bills aren't yet paid for fully, concludes.

    CLAIM: Health reform will cover illegal immigrants.

    THE FACTS: Not true. Both the House legislation and the Senate health committee bill rule out subsidizing insurance coverage for anyone who is not a citizen or legal resident. Illegal immigrants get care now — often in emergency rooms, with the cost frequently borne by hospitals, those who have private insurance coverage, and even taxpayers.

    CLAIM: Reform will lead to socialized medicine, like the British system.

    THE FACTS: Some Republicans and other opponents of the plan have repeated phrases such as 'government takeover of health care' to rouse opposition. But the Democratic legislation doesn't create a ''single-payer'' system in which government controls health care. The bills would preserve the private insurance system.

    Reform would increase government regulation over health insurers. And an option for a public insurance plan, run like Medicare, would inject more federal funding into health care and could alter the market while competing with insurers in an exchange. A public plan would add to government's role, ''but it's not a takeover of health care,'' Hobson says. Recently the White House has backed off somewhat in its insistence on a public plan as part of reform.

    CLAIM: Reform will raise your taxes.

    THE FACTS: True for the richest Americans, under the House legislation. House leaders have proposed a surcharge or tax on the wealthiest individuals to help pay the cost of reform.

    Obama has talked about limiting tax deductions for the wealthiest, and has insisted that the middle class not receive higher taxes. 'It's clear that some taxes will be raised to pay for reform,'' says Gordon. Other tax ideas include a levy on lush, Cadillac-style benefits plans.

    CLAIM: Health care overhaul will contain health care costs.

    THE FACTS: Health care costs for years have risen faster than inflation, and as a result, insurance premiums have more than doubled over the past decade. But while containing these costs is a goal of reform, many experts believe the current House legislation doesn't do enough. Gordon says greater cost control could be accomplished by capping the tax exclusion on employer health benefits, creating an independent commission to evaluate Medicare payments, and moving Medicare to a system that rewards quality of care, not quantity of services.

    CLAIM: The U.S. has the best health care system in the world.

    THE FACTS: Statistics suggest we're not getting enough bang for the buck. The U.S. spends 20% more per capita on health care than the next highest-spending country, and 50% more than the third. Countries in the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development with the highest life expectancy spend half as much per capita as the U.S., notes, which also cites a 2000 report from the World Health Organization that ranked the U.S. 37th in overall health system performance and 72nd on level of health. 'If you're concerned about primary care, you may be better off in another developed country,'' says Hobson.' If you need to see a specialist, you can't beat the U.S.''

    CLAIM: Reform will cut benefits to people on Medicare.

    THE FACTS: Obama calls this a myth, and he's right, according to AARP. None of the proposals would reduce seniors' benefits, the organization says. And Obama says reform will narrow the infamous 'doughnut hole' in Medicare prescription drug coverage. Health reform supporters do plan to eliminate subsidies to private insurance companies who offer Medicare Advantage coverage; the effects of the cuts on those plans are unknown.

    CLAIM: Reform will lead to government subsidizing abortion.

    THE FACTS:, a fact-checking web site, says the legislation contains nothing that would require the use of taxpayer money for subsidizing abortion. An amendment in House legislation aims to ensure that federal funds are not used for this coverage.

    Obama noted recently that 'we also have a tradition of, in this town, historically, of not financing abortions as part of government-funded health care.'' PolitiFact also says people could have a choice of a health plan that has payment for abortion coverage, and one without it. It's possible that women with subsidized coverage could buy a plan that has abortion coverage. The final wording on this issue, though, won't be clear till later in the process.

  • 298. John  |  March 25, 2010 at 6:58 am

    1. Yet you dismiss the fact that we know we are attracted to the same and/or both sexes?

    3. That’s not really an answer.

    7. Male dogs humping each other is often a way of exerting dominance (i.e., rape), particularly when you take into account that neutered male dogs, like our younger one, do it.

    What we’re talking about is non-human species exhibiting both same-sex copulation (as opposed to rape) and same-sex, long-term pair bonding.

    Denying our sexual orientation is not a “reasoned choice” against our natural instincts. It is a choice society attempts to force us to make and one that is nothing but detrimental to our emotional, mental and even physical well-being, as stress can cause medical problems. Is it also detrimental to those around us, especially if we feel compelled to attempt to straighten ourselves out by marrying someone of the opposite gender.

    The “reasoned choice” regarding our natural instincts regardling sexuality should be that each of us is an individual. We are not all heterosexual and shouldn’t be forced to pretend we are, against our natural instincts.

    Of course, other natural instincts are irrational fear of that which is different and a need to denigrate others to make one’s self feel better. These are natural instincts that YOU need to make a reasoned choice against.

    • 299. Melissa  |  March 25, 2010 at 7:28 am


      1. Yet you dismiss the fact that we know we are attracted to the same and/or both sexes?
      I don’t dismiss it. I think it’s common for people to believe that we are born the way we are and are unchangeable.

      3. That’s not really an answer.
      Oooh, you got me there! Yes, I believe in the scientific method. My problems with science and research are bias and the reliance on selective statistics and creative writing to deliver conclusions. Certain psychology and social research studies, e.g., are particularly suspect areas because of the dominant role of language in the methodology. You need only look at Michelle’s loaded questions and your jumping on me at my answer to question #3 to see the issue: Depending on your perspective, one might conclude that I was avoiding the question or that I thought my answer was obvious coming from one who spent 4 years getting a degree in the sciences.

      7. Male dogs humping each other is often a way of exerting dominance (i.e., rape), particularly when you take into account that neutered male dogs, like our younger one, do it.

      I really don’t know anything about mating in other species.

      • 300. Ronnie  |  March 25, 2010 at 7:36 am

        hahahaha….you don’t know anything about mating in other species….but you have a BA degree in Biology?….ahahahaahaa…..bwaaaaaaa…..coughcough…..heheheheheh…..<3…Ronnie

      • 301. John  |  March 25, 2010 at 8:09 am

        1. Your answer shows you dismiss it. By responding to a statement about knowing something with “it’s common for people to believe“, you imply they are incorrect.

        3. Many people have degrees in the sciences yet are still anti-evolution, young Earth Creationists. Furthermore, you have shown a strong bias in that you tout the “findings” of anti-gay NARTH yet dismiss findings from the scientific community as biased. That fact indicates a bias against the scientic method.

        7. If you don’t know, educate yourself before you criticize us.


        I was looking over some of your older comments and one really jumped out at me. You stated that your cousin and his male friend are both rather effeminate. You went on to say they both could probably find women with whom to pair and have children but haven’t, and you didn’t understand why not. I don’t recall if it was that comment or another where you said same-sex pairing makes no sense, as you can’t make a baby that way. That reduces couple pairing to the level of sex and nothing more.

        Human beings are not Legos.

        Sexual attraction goes well beyond what’s between our legs. If it didn’t, people would need to be naked in order to ascertain their physical gender. Are you attracted to your husband (assuming you are, that is) because he has a nice penis? Surely, that wasn’t the first thing you saw when you met? I’d think, like me, you were attracted to his face, particularly his eyes and nice smile. Perhaps, he has a cute butt. And so on and so forth. Sexual attraction is not just genital based.

        I find your assertions that we aren’t interested in relationships, since we can’t make babies together, and, therefore, are just sexual hedonists to be repulsive, frankly.

        My husband has been dealing with chronic pain issues for most of the 16+ years we’ve been together (before you ask or imply, since we’re gay, he is not HIV positive, nor am I). It’s gotten to the point where sex is something that might happen every two or three months.

        Why do I stay with him? I LOVE HIM.

        But doesn’t my kind just want sexual gratification? NO. We want love, just like our straight counterparts.

        I must just be getting sex elsewhere, since gays are promiscuous, right? NO. We are my husband and I are 100% monogamous. It’s him or my hand; no one else. I believe in the sanctity of marriage and forsaking all others, despite your repeated claims to the contrary and unlike a large percentage of your straight, anti same-sex marriage counterparts.

      • 302. Michelle Evans  |  March 25, 2010 at 8:17 am


        First, I will say that I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my set of questions, but then I would have to ask why you believe that my questions were “loaded?” I think they are all reasoned questions to help sort through the ideas of where you are coming from. I specifically made sure that not all of them had directly to do with equality for LGBT people, but were asked to get a gauge of your overall frame of reference.

        So, with that said, let me respond to your answers.

        1. “I’ve never thought about it, really. I know that I’m attracted to men, not women.”

        Now you know exactly what all of us who are LGBT feel. We know exactly who we are and who we are attracted to. To which I add a follow-up question to you: Why is it that you can “know” your own sexual orientation, but we cannot? And please don’t just say that we are all somehow confused, because, like you, we happen to know that we are not. (This really is the heart of the whole matter.)

        2. Yes, getting raped can have a profound effect on your view of the world. I can tell you this from personal experience because I was raped by a male doctor in a hospital just this past October. This had zero to do with my sexual orientation as a lesbian, or my gender identity as a woman, as both of these have been unaltered. And if it had been a woman who raped me (not unheard of), would this change my view of my sexual orientation? I doubt that very much because I can tell the difference between one depraved human being who would prey on someone else, and all the rest of humanity that does not–such as in the case of my beautiful and loving wife of 28 years.

        3 & 4. As has already been pointed out, having a degree in science does not automatically mean that you believe in the science of how old the Earth is. I could cite many examples of scientists who are just fine in their own field, but still believe in a young Earth out of the bible.

        5. I am glad to know that you believe evolution is correct as the evidence to support this is probably the best there is anywhere in science.

        6. It is unfortunate that you chose not to answer this question as it is probably the most important one of all. And I did not ask it rhetorically. If you do believe that LGBT people are truly human, then there is zero reason to deny any of us our basic civil rights. It is only through saying that we are somehow not truly human that anyone can get away with accepting we don’t get all the same laws as you do.

        Look at the situation with race because the exact same argument was used in that case. Black people were not as human as white, thus they did not deserve the same rights. And yet, eventually, the courts finally came down properly on the side of humanity, and deemed ALL people to be equal. There is rightly no exception to equality listed about LGBT.

        Example: There is a move afoot here in California right now to get a constitutional amendment called the Human Rights Amendment. It is being placed on our ballot by those who want to protect religious free speech by enacting a law which outlaws anyone from saying anything bad about someone else’s hate speech. The problem with their “Human Rights” idea is that it does not include LGBT people under its umbrella, because once again, we are not considered as human beings so so would automatically not be covered! So, yes, question 6 was extremely important.

        7. The point here, that you appear to dismiss, is that being LGBT is a natural thing within thousands of species on Earth. If you do believe in science and evolution, and that we are descended from earlier species, why would all of a sudden, humans have bred out any LGBT traits that are common amongst pretty much all other species, including those we are descended from? Your idea that somehow “common sense” prevails because we are now “fully” evolved over other “lower” species does not fit with science (thus my other reasoned questions about your belief system).

        And to think we are the highest order that will ever exist on Earth is a fantasy, which, if you truly believe in evolution, you must understand to be true. Evolution will continue in the future, as it has for the past hundreds of millions of years, and a few tens of millions of years from now, the “highest” form of life on this planet will be vastly different than it is today.

      • 303. David Kimble  |  March 25, 2010 at 8:27 am

        At Melissa – Are you aware there are species that mate for life, like penguins, dolphins. and whales to name just a few, who choose to mate with same sex? While mankind has placed itself at the top of the intelligence framework, I sometimes wonder, whether we truly are – given our propensity towards violence – wars, beating of spouses, and gay bashing to name just a few of the odd pretenses humans find for violence,. <3 David

      • 304. John  |  March 25, 2010 at 8:30 am

        I just want to quickly point out that many people say animals kill and eat each other in the wild, something we humans would find abhorrent.

        Yet, the majority of human animals kill and eat other animals.

      • 305. fiona64  |  March 25, 2010 at 8:37 am

        Melissa wrote: I really don’t know anything about mating in other species.

        I’m thinking your degree in biology is lacking a few elements …

        Just one of many links:

        BTW, our closest genetic relative, the bonobo ape? The most common form of sexual congress among them is lesbianism.


  • 306. Melissa  |  March 25, 2010 at 8:01 am

    Well, Ronnie, I can tell you this: While I didn’t spend much time studying zoology in college, I did study human anatomy, but I don’t recall spending any time on the biological purpose of homosexual sex. I recall that worms are hermaphrodites and that some lower life forms reproduce asexually, though.

    • 307. Ronnie  |  March 25, 2010 at 8:15 am

      That’s funny because I have a BA degree in Fashion Design and yet I had to study all those things in Biology and Environmental Science you know about mating in other species…..Honey zoology is a branch of biology and biology is the study of all living organisms…..I knew about the mating rituals of other organisms (and humans are an organism) when I was a freshmen in high school….your argument is flawed and you have been PWND…..Deal with it!…….<3….Ronnie

    • 308. John  |  March 25, 2010 at 8:25 am

      The biological purpose is PLEASURE and HAPPINESS; just like for straight people.

      If sex was meant solely for making babies, it wouldn’t be something that brings physical pleasure plus reinforces and strengthens bonds of love.

      If sex was just for procreation, the man would simply extract some semen and give it to the woman, who would insert it into her uterus. Woohoo! Let’s do that again!

      One other thing, the male “g-spot” (the prostate) is located inside the male body. I’m not going to get graphic, but the best way to stimulate it is by rubbing it, and it’s necessary to enter into the body to do so. Certain male appendages and orifices are just the right size and located in just the right place to do this. In other words, male bodies have evolved to a design where male/male copulation is intensely pleasurable for both parties. That would certainly appear to lend strong support for biological purpose, at least among males. I cannot comment for females as I am not now, nor have I ever been, female.

      • 309. fiona64  |  March 25, 2010 at 8:40 am

        Hell, if sex were only intended for making babies, human females would have “heat” cycles and only be receptive at those times.

        I’m just sayin’ …


      • 310. John  |  March 25, 2010 at 8:44 am

        And human males wouldn’t even think about sex unless they smelled a female in heat.

    • 311. Ronnie  |  March 25, 2010 at 8:32 am

      Oh and here’s another thing, Melissa, If you have read any of the past threads then you would know that I am a huge advocate for the Earth and have a love of all species. Except Spiders, Snakes, sharks and Clowns(they got to go) Although I in no way what so ever have a desire to mate with another species, unlike you, I do not believe in lower life forms. We are all children of the Earth. We all have to share this planet (except for those four, they got to go). I am not like most humans I feel the need to think I am in any way what so ever better then the other life forms and organisms that we share this planet with. YOU however do, because you think you are better me and all LGBTQQIA Humans and obviously other Earth species as well…..enough said….<3…Ronnie

      • 312. John  |  March 25, 2010 at 8:37 am

        Spiders, snakes and sharks are cool, provided they don’t get close to me. Not counting snakes that can’t kill; I like holding snakes and feeling all their muscles rippling around.

        Clowns are OK.

        Mimes, on the other hand, should all be beaten to death. Being a mime is a choice.

      • 313. John  |  March 25, 2010 at 8:38 am

        Sorry, I meant snakes that can’t kill me.

      • 314. Ronnie  |  March 25, 2010 at 8:45 am

        That’s suppose to read…..

        “I am not like most humans I don’t feel the need to think I am in any way what so ever better then the other life forms and organisms that we share this planet with. YOU(Melissa) however do, because you think you are better then me and all LGBTQQIA Humans and obviously other Earth species as well…..enough said….”

        Sorry for the typos…I am human after all…..well that and I have not had my 2nd cup of coffee yet……<3…Ronnie

  • 315. Melissa  |  March 25, 2010 at 9:28 am

    I’m sorry, but I really just don’t have the time to debate all of you. I think you are all really good at rationalization and good debaters.

    My posting here was initially to express my understanding why parents would object to two girls, one in a tux, going to their kid’s prom. Those people don’t care about all of the esoteric arguments that you present here. They see it simply as I presented it initially.

    As our society moves from a religious-morality framework to a secular-moral-relativity framework, our society becomes more chaotic where anyone can argue in favor or against anything they want. For example, one can make a case today for people who want to marry their pets. Today, that seems a silly notion, but I could make many of the same arguments made here about love, companionship, sexual pleasure, having an heir, etc… that would support that case. And why not? And why should I care? And couldn’t we argue that scientists should conduct research to allow humans and other animals able to reproduce? Of course we could.

    So t we can argue about the prom, gay rights, forever, but we’ll never come to agreement because we have differing opinions, and our opinions are based on different perspectives of right/wrong, normal/abnormal and how we perceive society should be. I hang my hat on anatomy, you hang your hat on psychology, but it all comes down to what you think versus what I think. And whoever makes the best argument to the lawmakers, I guess, wins. Bye all.

    • 316. John  |  March 25, 2010 at 9:32 am


      Thanks for not once actually paying attention to any information presented to you. Your strength is admirable; may you NOT pass it on to your children.

      • 317. Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  March 25, 2010 at 9:55 am

        And all I can add to Melissa’s departure is: Good Riddance to Bad Rubbish! ANyone who would compare being born gay to being a pedophole, and then continue to say that two loving adults together in a lifelong, committed relationship who want the legal right to protect each other and have that love, care, and protection LEGALLY recognized is the one who needs psychiatric counseling and needs togo to an ex-bigotry education center to pray away the hate.

    • 318. fiona64  |  March 25, 2010 at 1:07 pm

      Translation of Melissa’s post:m “I don’t really have an argument, just my deepseated belief that gay people are “icky” and “unnatural,” despite repeated explanations and demonstrations that both are inaccurate. My made-up-out-of-whole-cloth degree in biology tells me everything I need to know. Those bonobos apes are just sinful and they choose to be gay. We can send them to Primate Exodus and they’ll be cured.”

      Bye-bye, honey. Be sure to have your white sheet and hood neat and tidy for your next Tea Party Rally.



    • 319. fiona64  |  March 25, 2010 at 2:07 pm

      Wow, you really have swallowed all of the BS talking points, haven’t you?

      You show me a pet who can read, understand and sign a marriage license, sugar-britches. Just do it. As soon as you can prove it’s possible, I’ll be the first one standing in line to champion the rights of sapient, sentient animals.

      Until then, just take your insulting bullshit out of here, okay? Because you are likening gay men and lesbians to bestiality and pedophilia, despite your protestations to the contrary. See, honey, we can read and everything.

      I’m straight, and I find you so far beyond disgusting that I cannot describe it. I can only imagine how the GLBT folks here feel, with you saying that their loving relationships are comparable to child and animal rape.


  • 320. Ronnie  |  March 25, 2010 at 10:07 am

    There the Hatero goes again….
    1. You say that you are not religious but then say that we have to follow religious moral doctrine…..WOW!!…really?!…..Really?…..Contradict much?

    2.Can a pet sign a marriage license? NO!!!!

    3. The problem Melissa is that you believe you are better then us. You Hateros are forcing us to live the way you want us too…..That is not freedom thats dictatorship.

    4. You Hateros are forcing your opinions us, you don’t even care about our opinions but you demand that we care about yours….again that’s not freedom that dictatorship.

    So I am going to ask you to take this notion into consideration one more time….

    What are you going to do when 65 thousand soldiers, 500 thou NYC pride attendees last June, 150 thou march on D.C. last Oct., almost 3 mill for same sex marriage FB page as well as all the other pride and LGBTQQIA events all across the country STOP being peaceful and start becoming violent which is evident in all the past historic rights movements?

    I see it like this….if you don’t notice the similarities of the timelines…..when you get punched in the face… are going to be like…”where’ed that come from”….and I’m going to be like….”Well not just I….but history warned you….maybe you should have listened and studied more”…….JMHGO…..

    and like John said thanks for not once actually paying attention to any information presented to you and answering any of the Q’s that are relevant to you as a person….you were “trying” (NOT!) to understand this and we educated you on it but you chose ignore that….while we were trying to understand you….and read you like a book….

    I find your strength weak, condescending, egocentric, and narcissistic, spoiled, selfish, greedy, unethical, in-human, immoral, un-American, hypocritical, contradictory, uneducated, naziesque, offensive, disrespectful, arrogant, careless, delusional, erratic, draconian, callous, fanatical, pathetic, ignorant, cowardly, lacking, obnoxious, repulsive, foolish, snobbish, tacky, troubled, hahaha – typical, uptight, wasteful, truculent , bigoted, prejudiced, PSYCHOTIC, crazy, creepy, cynical, defective, inconsiderate, disturbed,unempathetic , envious, insensitive, hindered, tormented, unhappy, defeated, incompetent, unqualified, ineffective, desperate, incapable of love, Blind, deaf, and dumb…..just to name a few

    and yes may you NOT pass those qualities onto your poor innocent children…… <3….Ronnie

    • 321. Ronnie  |  March 25, 2010 at 10:15 am

      Oh and P.S. GOOD BYE and GOOD RIDDANCE….Have a nice life with all the Gayness all around you……because WE ARE NOT GOING AWAY and WE WILL NOT STOP until we get 100% EQUALITY on ALL Demands…..a fact that you are just going to have to accept and DEAL WITH IT!!!!……

      can I get a HALLELU?!……..<3….Ronnie

  • 323. Melissa  |  March 25, 2010 at 10:51 am

    I know I said, “bye,” but I couldn’t help but reply to Fiona’s comment, “BTW, our closest genetic relative, the bonobo ape? The most common form of sexual congress among them is lesbianism.”

    Heh, heh, well that would certainly have great pursuasive effect on the anti-gay crowd. Nothing like comparing gay people to the esteemed “bonobo ape” to win converts. Trust me, the homosexual animals argument doesn’t do much to help your case. But thanks for the biology lesson!

    • 324. Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  March 25, 2010 at 10:55 am

      And I notice that you have never apologized, nor have you even attempted to try and differentiate between being gay and pedophilia. And yes, there is a difference. Ask any reputable, peer-reviewed psychologist, psychiatrist, or medical doctor. Meantime, I will pray for you that you gain the true elements of humanity–compassion, empathy, and the ability to actually think for yourself, as well as learning that you cannot micromanage and control other people, including but not limited to, your chldren.

      • 325. Melissa  |  March 25, 2010 at 11:22 am

        Richard –

        I did not mean that gays are like pedophiles, I meant that the arguments for/against homosexuality could be made for/against pedophilia in that both involve sex between people that not everyone agrees should be considered acceptable and normal.

        It’s a fair example to present to gay people, because gay people view pedophilia with the same disdain that some heterosexuals view homosexuality; whereas homosexuals, obviously, can only see the positive aspects of homosexuality. Of course the reasons for the hatred of the sexual acts are not analogous, and I did not mean to suggest that homosexuality hurts people (like pedophilia does). If that’s how you took my opinion, I apologize.

        All that said (and I really gotta go), based on my first intended final comment, it is not out of the question that a society could transform and rationalize the acceptable use of children as sex objects, conjuring up some form of good that comes to the children from it thereby removing the need for legal consent or lowering the age of consent to some ridiculously low age. No?

      • 326. Ronnie  |  March 25, 2010 at 11:34 am

        The problem Melissa with you uneducated comparison and its a comparison whether you like it or not…..Is that the LGBTQQIA community finds pedophillia wrong because MOST of us are victims of it…..again get your facts straight….That’s how all of us took your O.P. days ago including the straight allies…..It’s too late for an apology….

        Again dopty-daddy….it has the word apologize in it….and yet it still makes you and the rest of us sound like its our fault that we where offended…..hmmmmm…..

        I just love when a TROLL repeatedly says goodbye and I’m not coming back…and yet there she is again(he says exhaustedly)…..Koo Koo Koo……Koo Koo Koo……<3….Ronnie

      • 327. Ronnie  |  March 25, 2010 at 11:52 am

        And incidentally there are no negative aspects of homosexuality that cannot be equated to heterosexuality…..a fact that you Hateros seem to happily ignore where as the heteros (our straight allies) do not…..We see the negative…you just assume that we don’t….because for some reason you hateros are psychics and know everything about us including the things that we don’t say or do….Melissa, You’re a “Gay Whisperer”…..and there you go again telling us what we do and not see….you are not Gay or a mind reader and you refuse to see things though our eyes….where we have seen things though your eyes…that’s why we have a debunking for everything you state….not to mention that we have straight people (fiona64 among others) that will back us up……enough said….if you say you are going to leave…then leave….don’t continue to harass us….it’s really not attractive….respectfully read what was already said and DEAL WITH IT!!!…….<3….Ronnie

      • 328. fiona64  |  March 25, 2010 at 2:01 pm

        Melissa, despite your arguments to the contrary, comparing gay men and lesbians to pedophiles is NOT a reasonable comparison. Why? Because we are talking about consenting adults wishing to marry here — not about a crime of power over a subordinate person. Pedophilia is RAPE, sweetie, not sex. Rape is about power, not sex.

        Now, why don’t you go back to your Tea Party and leave the civilized folk here alone?


    • 329. Ronnie  |  March 25, 2010 at 10:56 am

      BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA….if you really were a Bio major you would have already known that….I knew that when I was 10yo……PWND…..this is like the 4th or 5th time the TROLL said bye and came back…..don’t respond TROLL…..nobodies homo….ahaha…I said homo….get it because I’m a Homo….blushing…totes…..<3….Ronnie

    • 330. fiona64  |  March 25, 2010 at 1:03 pm

      Melissa, if you have a degree in biology, I’m the queen of Sheba.

      Don’t let the door hit you where your god split you.


  • 331. Ronnie  |  March 25, 2010 at 11:08 am

    Hey hey….Melissa…..Where’ed you get your BA Degree in Biology?…….The School of Common Sense?……bwaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!……<3….Ronnie

    • 332. Ronnie  |  March 25, 2010 at 11:13 am

      Now thats a rhetorical Q…..JSYK…..<3….Ronnie

    • 333. fiona64  |  March 25, 2010 at 1:04 pm

      She got it at “Close Cover While Striking” University, Ronnie.


  • 334. John  |  March 25, 2010 at 1:52 pm

    It’s a fair example to present to gay people, because gay people view pedophilia with the same disdain that some heterosexuals view homosexuality; whereas homosexuals, obviously, can only see the positive aspects of homosexuality.

    Interesting. The way you’ve worded it, only homosexuals via pedophilia with disdain.

    • 335. John  |  March 25, 2010 at 1:53 pm


      that’s view not via.


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