VIDEO: Family Research Council’s Tony Perkins revels in defeat of DADT repeal

September 23, 2010 at 8:15 am 124 comments

Last night, the Family Research Council filed an amicus brief with the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. Here’s the Scribd doc that Kathleen and Ann S. posted. Stay tuned for more analysis of it later — a comprehensive takedown by Alan E. that first appeared in the comments of last night’s “Food for thought: A P8TT community project” thread. Meanwhile, please read Karen Ocamb’s piece below on FRC, cross-posted from LGBTPOV. (FYI: I will not be near my computer for most of the day on Thursday, but we have some excellent posts in the pipeline today. If you have breaking news links, please share them in the comments. Thanks!) — Eden

By Karen Ocamb

John McCainIt seems Arizona Sen. John McCain was pretty amped up even before he went into the Senate session debating a cloture vote on the National Defense Authorization Act, which contained an amendment to repeal Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. McCain warmed up for that Tuesday afternoon session with the morning Senate Armed Services Committee hearing to confirm Sec. Gate’s pick to be the next commandant of the Marine Corps, Gen. James Amos. McCain used questions of him to attack the Pentagon’s survey of the troops and their families on the impact of the repeal of DADT.

“Have you seen the, quote, study, that is being conducted by the Department of Defense?” McCain asked Amos, the Christian Science Monitor reported. “You know that this study, quote unquote, does not assess the impact of morale and effectiveness on the repeal of the law?” CSM says McCain pointed out that the study currently being conducted “was designed to help Defense Secretary Robert Gates and others figure out not, “whether,” but how best to change the policy. He called this “an incredible act of disingenuous behavior on their part.”

Well, reading Family Research Council head Tony Perkin’s latest email blast to supporters, it sounds like McCain got his talking points from FRC. And there is just a hint of self-congratulation in his “victory” video. Here’s is Perkins’ email:

It’s been less than 24 hours since one of the most significant votes of the 111th Congress, but you wouldn’t know it by the press coverage. Since Tuesday’s massive victory for conservatives on the Defense Authorization bill, the media is relatively mum. Maybe they–like liberal leaders–are trying to bury the embarrassment of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” as deeply as possible, hoping to avoid the inevitable questions back home, like: why now? Why, at a time of near-record unemployment, would Congress waste months trying to find a way to go against the advice of military leaders? Why, when voters are crying out for economic relief, would Democrats follow the orders of radical lobbies instead of their grassroots employers? And why, when our sons and daughters are overseas in explosive combat, would a Congress thousands of miles away try to disrupt the war? The President and his allies may try to forget this spectacular failure, but Americans will not. Regardless of how they feel about homosexuals in the military or abortions on international bases, they agree that there are far more important things to debate in this country than a coming out party for a handful of homosexuals in the military.

But for those of us in Washington who dug in our heels and refused to let the President bully our soldiers, this is a moment to celebrate. Faced with a liberal supermajority, a White House doggedly determined to reinvent the military, and entertainers who used their platform to step on the troops, this is a huge victory for our military and all that they stand for. That doesn’t mean the fight is over. It just means that the question will fade into the background until after the election, when Democrats, fueled by what may be monumental losses, will decide whether to use the lame-duck session to exact revenge or not. One thing is certain.

When the issue does resurface, the Marines will have a new face in the fray. With General James Conway’s term almost up, Defense Secretary Robert Gates has tapped General James Amos to take over as Marine Commandant. Yesterday, Conway’s successor-to-be was grilled by members of the Senate Armed Services Committee in a hearing where, for an entire hour, not a single issue was discussed except gays in the military. Proving just how misplaced the Left’s priorities are, important questions on things like Marine warfare, Iraq strategy, and our role in Afghanistan all took a backseat to the General’s opinion on homosexuals in the military. Instead of pressing the nominee on his experience or vision for the Corps, liberals seemed obsessed with his position on homosexuality.

Like his predecessor, Amos said that he is personally opposed to repealing “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.” He emphasized his “concern” that “a change now will serve as a distraction to Marines who are tightly focused at this point on combat operations in Afghanistan.” He went on to say that very few in his service branch were fans of the President’s agenda. “I’ve heard at the Marine bases and [from Marines that] input for the online survey has been predominately negative,” he said yesterday. For now, at least, the military can enjoy a reprieve from Washington ’s meddling and get back to the mission at hand. Maybe then, said one writer sarcastically, “the Senate can return to trivial matters like the future of the military.”

Click here to watch my video response to the victory on “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.”

Entry filed under: DADT trial, Right-wing, Videos.

Food for thought: A P8TT community project NOM’s strategy of hypocrisy, Part 2: Religious freedom

124 Comments Add your own

  • 1. Ann S.  |  September 23, 2010 at 8:18 am


    • 2. Lesbians Love Boies  |  September 23, 2010 at 8:19 am

      scribin’ follower

      • 3. Rhie  |  September 23, 2010 at 12:44 pm

        Scribin’ follower follower

    • 4. JonT  |  September 24, 2010 at 2:45 pm

      late scribin.

  • 5. Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  September 23, 2010 at 8:21 am

    Why am I NOT surprised that Antoinette Perkins is jubilant about the momentary defeat of DADT repeal. After all, I have seen it happen that those who scream the loudest about gays are often the ones who are the deepest in the closet and have the highest levels of self-loathing. These are usually the ones whose own activity ends up outing them in dramatic fashion.

  • 6. Ann S.  |  September 23, 2010 at 8:25 am

    I can’t watch the video or I’ll lose my breakfast. But the idea of calling the failure to even bring the DAB to the floor for debate a victory is stunning.

    • 7. Sagesse  |  September 23, 2010 at 8:30 am

      I agree. If this keeps up we’re going to be on a bulimic fast of our own. And scribin’

  • 8. Ronnie  |  September 23, 2010 at 8:32 am

    Tony Purpkins….is a Nazi….He supports, condones, & advocates murder & violence…..He supports Uganda’s Genocide bill….He is a heartless, soulless piece of trash…..destroying America w/his Fascist agenda to force us all to follow his repugnant religious beliefs & definitions ….he is a traitor to the American Government…he is a traitor to the American people….& he is a traitor to Humanity…..he is not even worthy of being called human….. > I …Ronnie

  • 9. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  September 23, 2010 at 8:38 am

    FUCK Perkins!!!!
    He sees the repeal of DADT as:
    ….. a coming out party for a handful of homosexuals in the military.

    May he rot in hell!!!

    • 10. BK  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:07 am

      Ah–remember that slogan… “No H8″… Please keep conversation civil…

      • 11. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:56 am

        Nope! But thanks for playing hall monitor

    • 12. Sheryl Carver  |  September 23, 2010 at 3:11 pm


      Emotions run high for all of us, AND one of the reasons I come to this site is the high level of civility without needing a moderator. Even the few significant disagreements between posters usually get conducted & often resolved in a respectful manner.

      BK issued a polite reminder.

      I’m doing the same thing.

      • 13. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  September 23, 2010 at 3:37 pm

        Really???? Other posters go on rants far worse than what I have written and I have not seen any ‘polite reminders’ of civility issued to them.

      • 14. Sheryl Carver  |  September 23, 2010 at 3:55 pm

        It’s the language, Mark. At least, for me.

        Happily, I don’t see much use of the F word here. Even so, I probably wouldn’t have commented on it except for the “hall monitor” comment to BK. I don’t claim to remember everything you’ve ever posted here, but I don’t recall previous posts of yours that were like this.

      • 15. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  September 23, 2010 at 4:15 pm

        I guess even for a man who supports the murder of GLBT persons around the world the ‘F’ word is to much….got it

      • 16. fiona64  |  September 23, 2010 at 4:29 pm

        To be fair, I have lost track of the number of times I asked Ronnie (I love you, Ronnie!) to calm down …


      • 17. toth  |  September 24, 2010 at 6:58 am

        Tone trolls are the worst. Fuck it, Mark, you were right on. TPerk deserves a lot worse than what you wrote. Politeness is overrated.

  • 18. Caitlin  |  September 23, 2010 at 9:00 am

    Anyone else find it interesting how these vomit-inducing bigot droids who were so upset about the “will of the people” being ignored are perfectly okay with it here? It doesn’t have a Single. Damn. Thing. to do with morals. It’s their fear and their hatred and they just use concern for children or voters as a way of brainwashing others into their cult.

    • 19. Rhie  |  September 23, 2010 at 12:47 pm

      I noticed that as well. WILL OF THE PEOPLE is being screamed about the prop8 trial. Yet, a high majority of people support the repeal of DADT. It is the will of the people, by any honest poll, that it gets repealed. And yet…

      • 20. Bob  |  September 23, 2010 at 3:33 pm

        The will of the people in the DADT case is trumped by the power of the church, which is in process of turning the military into a Christian Army, fighting for God, the will of the people is at odds with that goal.

      • 21. Rhie  |  September 23, 2010 at 9:41 pm

        Oh I know how they work. I was one of Them at one point, but in my defense, I was a teenager and had no exposure to any other way of thinking.

        It really is amazing how well they keep people from wanting to look for alternative ways of thinking or even being able to if they want to. You have to know what to type in the Google search engine to be able to find anything useful on any topic, and they even keep THAT info away.

  • 22. Caitlin  |  September 23, 2010 at 9:02 am

    Er, the will of the people being ignored in the Prop 8 case. I know, I know. Blind rage is no excuse for not proofreading…

  • 23. elliom  |  September 23, 2010 at 9:04 am

    Why, at a time of near-record unemployment, would Congress waste months trying to find a way to go against the advice of military leaders? Why, when voters are crying out for economic relief, would Democrats follow the orders of radical lobbies instead of their grassroots employers?

    Because this would put ppl back to work, and help the economy. DOH!

  • 24. Alan E.  |  September 23, 2010 at 9:04 am

    Wait until tomorrow when my full refutation of the brief from FRC might get posted on the front page here. I am getting another document fro Kathleen to see how their argument has changed since earlier this year.

  • 25. Owen  |  September 23, 2010 at 9:14 am

    Why are you posting this?

    I don’t want to see this disgusting piece of slime gloating over this.

    Are you trying to give him free publicity? He LOST. He lost in the courts. There’s no need to make it look like he’s spitting in our faces when he’s the one who’s on the wrong side of history.

    • 26. Bill  |  September 23, 2010 at 9:40 am

      Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.

    • 27. Carpool Cookie  |  September 23, 2010 at 10:15 am

      It’s great that with current technology, all the statements made by these people are viewable,…FOREVER. Their disgusting malice won’t fade away in libraries as yellowing newspaper clippings.

      This is documentation of history. And their descendents will have to explain away the footage, forever.

  • 28. AndrewPDX  |  September 23, 2010 at 9:25 am

    What do FRC and Charmin have in common?

    They both have T.P. and are full of $H!T.

    Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

    • 29. Rhie  |  September 23, 2010 at 12:48 pm

      have to admit, I cracked a smile lol.

  • 30. Sagesse  |  September 23, 2010 at 10:01 am

    The Alliance Defense Fund (ADF), a group founded and funded by TV preachers, is urging evangelical pastors to openly break federal tax law this Sunday by using the pulpit to endorse or oppose candidates. The ADF calls its stunt “Pulpit Freedom Sunday.”

    • 31. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  September 23, 2010 at 12:13 pm

      Thanks for posting that Sagesse.
      Nothing like breaking not only man’s law but God’s law as well. Such wonderful religious leaders these people are

    • 32. Rhie  |  September 23, 2010 at 12:49 pm

      Lets all file complaints to relevant agencies.

    • 33. Felyx  |  September 23, 2010 at 7:54 pm

      Wow, imagine a massive revocation of nonprofit status!!! The increase revenue alone would put a serious dent in the deficit! I can’t imagine this is in anyway a good idea but if it happened and they got revoked I would be hard pressed to not feel real good about it.

  • 34. Felyx  |  September 23, 2010 at 10:05 am

    You know I want to go on the record right now saying that I am not cool with this enmity towards closeted gays who are fighting against their own self interests. If you look back through the comments you will find dozens of comments of this nature, even one comment that I made I am not proud of, so there is no one in particular that I am addressing. I love all of us, I do, but I also really hurt for those individuals that caved to peer pressure, social pressure, etc., and chose a path of pain and torture in order to fit in and in many cases survive!
    Does anyone ever stop to think why these individuals act like this? Does anyone at all stop to think whether any of us have denied ourselves in order to fit in or survive?… !!! I have! I it really hard to tell you gay hating father that you are gay. It is excruciating to leave the church you have loved and believed in your whole childhood because you know you are not wanted. And it SUCKS to God DAMNED unholy HELL to get fired for something that NEVER EVEN OCCURRED when you know DAMN well that you were fired for being gay!!!

    Who I ask you was there for these individuals when they needed love and support as children? Who was there to tell them it is ok to love and to be loved by someone of their own choosing? I never had that! I just realized that I have a big fat assed mouth and am just not capable of keeping lies or secrets. I could prevent being honest, it really isn’t in my nature. But what of those who can lie? And who learned how to lie in order to survive?


    I will fight all the self hating gays tooth and nail to get their destructive behavior curtailed… if is for ALL OF OUR own collective good. But to sit here and berate them, or accuse people of being like them, or even entertaining the idea that these gay men and women are hypocritical and less worthy is giving in to the very lies and hateful deceit put out by the true enemy who would see us all turn on ourselves and DIE!!!

    Ronnie rants, and sometimes it chaffs me to hear him rant, but BY GOD he is right! McCain would gladly see us all die! Chablis obviously feels that way or, at the most possible begrudgingly kindest, he is VERY PLEASE to hire people who feel that way. Nazis did not stop at Jews, the KKK did not stop at blacks… McCain refuses to acknowledge the obvious truth in public and very likely he REALLY BELIEVES what he is saying!

    ‘They’ will prey on any ANY person, straight, gay, young or old to advance this paranoid hate filled agenda! The C Street gang, the current Senate Armed Services Commitee, NOM, FRC, LDS majority, the ginormous Catholic and Orthodox Churchs, the KKK, Neo-Nazis, Mayor Yuri Luzhkov of Moscow (which is an enormously powerful position unlike what we think of when we think of mayors… sort of like Govenor of all Russia in a way), please feel free to add!

    So get off this bandwagon of vilifying tortured and terrified gays who are so abused that they cannot even cope with reality! Fern is a great guy, but like I said to him, I am only human… don’t tell me to just get over it! I have been tormented for decades and it has destroyed me. I would have been better off dead at age four for all the horrors that I have had to endure.

    I am infuriated by Ken Mehlman, George Rekers, Ted Haggard, Eddie Long, and any number of Popes and Bishops, etc., but these people are not the true enemy! Neither is McCain, Perkins, Gallagher, Brown, Scalia or the like…


    Our enemy in any and all situations THROUGHOUT HUMANITY is only and has only ever been ourselves! We are ignorant! We are fearful! We are desperate! And we succumb to taking the path of least resistance regardless if it is cheating on taxes, lying about the last sheet of toilet paper, murdering in cold blood or picking your nose!!!

    So stop throwing stones… everyone is guilty of something, fearful of something, hateful of something or has fell short of perfection in some way.

    Instead, read self-help books, confront lying senators, join causes, feed the hungry, forgive the tormented, spread your message, stop picking on poor fat Maggie (and I am soooo guilty of this one!) and love one another!

    If you hate Tony Perkins you hate me… because I could be him. If you despise McCain or Brown then you might as well include me because, had events in my life been different, I would have been that guy! I am not immune to lesser human traits and neither are you!

    I am ashamed to even rant here but I have really lost my cool over this Senate thing. I am sick of having to go to ‘the teacher’ (judges) to get ‘the other boys’ to stop picking on me. I want real leaders and guess what YOU P8TTERS ARE THEM!

    So keep it together you guys… remember that YOU are the ONLY REAL ENEMY and everyone else is just a confused child that never got enough love and education. Take care of yourselves and EVERYONE ELSE too! And what you can’t take care of then let it go. And when you fuck up and lash out anyway well then just forgive yourself and eat a bowl of ice-cream… or go for a walk in the park.

    I love you all and I am so sick right now I am just bawling! It hurts to hurt so much.

    With sincere love… even to ‘They’,

    • 35. Lesbians Love Boies  |  September 23, 2010 at 10:09 am

      I love you Felyx. I am with you all the way!

    • 36. Carpool Cookie  |  September 23, 2010 at 10:18 am


      I have nothing against closeted gays, and feel empathy for them.

      It’s when they turn it into a career that I lose respect.

    • 37. Carpool Cookie  |  September 23, 2010 at 10:20 am

      My italics are out of control today! The above post should have looked like this:


      I love all of us, I do, but I also really hurt for those individuals that caved to peer pressure, social pressure, etc., and chose a path of pain and torture in order to fit in and in many cases survive!

      I have nothing against closeted gays, and feel empathy for them.

      It’s when they turn it into a career that I lose respect.

      • 38. Felyx  |  September 23, 2010 at 10:32 am

        Losing respect has nothing to do with love, self evaluation (and as my dad points out) being respectful. You are right to not ‘respect’ the information or activism spread in this manner. It is not respectable in and of itself and thus deserves none.

        <3 Felyx

      • 39. Rhie  |  September 23, 2010 at 12:54 pm

        Yup. You can disagree with or even hate an idea but not hate the person who holds it. I feel sorry for Tony Perkins and others who live that sort of life. What kind of messed up mind do they have? I hate their message.

      • 40. Carpool Cookie  |  September 23, 2010 at 3:02 pm

        I don’t know about that. We ARE what we do, non?

        The rest is just hot air.

      • 41. Felyx  |  September 23, 2010 at 4:23 pm

        Are you implying that the mere act of having opposite sex sex makes you heterosexual?

        Are you suggesting, like the Christian Legal Society, that there is no difference between action and belief (or in this case internal nature)?

        Maybe, Cookie, doing something really does not define who we truly are.


      • 42. Rhie  |  September 23, 2010 at 9:44 pm

        Felyx — Gotta agree with you there. I have a boyfriend, have very limited experiences with women, yet I KNOW I am bisexual. I know the way people know they are gay or trans or lesbian. Experience has nothing to do with it. If it were so, people would be orientation-less until they had sex with someone, and that orientation could change back and forth depending.

    • 43. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  September 23, 2010 at 10:24 am

      I understand what you’re saying and feel your pain Felyx, even if I do happen to disagree with you.
      Love you deeply my friend

      Big Hugs

      • 44. Felyx  |  September 23, 2010 at 10:35 am


        You can disagree all you want about bigotry etc. You don’t even have to actually say what it is that you disagree with.

        I am, however, curious as to how you are ‘feeling’ my pain? Is there any way you can siphon some of that off while you are busy feeling me?

        Regardless of what you agree with or what you feel, I still implore you to take the high ground. If not for your sake than for your sake. (No typo there.)

        <3 Felyx

      • 45. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:03 am

        I feel your pain because I have the same pain daily….hating and lashing out at others is not a comfortable thing for me or most thinking humans. So yes I understand and feel your pain.
        I do not agree that these people deserve or require my pity or understanding. I do not agree with your assertion that these people are closeted gays, or have not known love as children as you stated.
        What I see is people caught up in a power struggle. People who wnat to control others, and to get wealth while doing so.
        I do agree we ALL have have our faults and our shortcomings….mine however have NEVER involved hurting others.
        I will not allow these people to get away with what they are doing to my family and others. I will forgive them ONLY when they show me they deserve it and are wanting it.
        I will as you say take the high road WHEN and only WHEN we can all walk down that road hand in hand together.
        If this means you are a better man than I than so be it.
        I will continue my struggles against evil as best I can, and may God forgive me for my own sins in so doing.

    • 46. fiona64  |  September 23, 2010 at 10:39 am

      Thank you for this, Felyx.

      I put up a huge shell around myself for a long time to keep bullies (and even potential friends) and way more than arms’ length. We all do things out of fear; you are so right.

      I have many thoughts about this and not enough time to type them all. I am grateful to you for making this impassioned and heartfelt commentary and, for now, will just chime in with “what he said.” (I can’t bawl right now, though … although it’s a near thing.)


      • 47. Felyx  |  September 23, 2010 at 10:45 am

        I love Fiona,

        I may not be 100% accurate about all that I said but I know I am seriously close. It is hard to put up with the constant torture, bullying and haranguing and still feel at peace with the world.

        I love you Fiona and hope to meet. For now I will do some bawling in your honor. <3 Felyx

    • 48. ĶĭŗîļĺęΧҲΪ  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:07 am

      I respectfully and only partially dissent from Felyx’s opinion (since sometimes he writes for both of us, I felt I should say that).

      I can understand the reasons why these self-loathing gays happen to be who they happen to be.  I understand that completely.  And I do not hate anyone for that really.

      They are sad people who couldn’t find a place for themselves in this world where they could just forget the whole thing and pretend to be someone else, straight and married with kids or just single and miserable.  Instead, they got so hung up on the very issue in the core of their being that they ended up hating themselves and others just like themselves — gays.  And they still ended up being miserable, but only on the inside, where no one can see.

      I understand how it happens, but I cannot forgive them for being stuck on that, not being able to change under the pressure of ample evidence that there is nothing wrong with being gay.  And I am furious that they are trying to make me and millions of other gays turn into the same self-hating miserable shadows of human beings that would prefer to torture themselves with their own whips, rather than be tortured by others but know they are on the right side of the history.

      I just don’t understand why people don’t want to change and embrace their own homosexuality knowing now that they were lied to and misled into believing they are sick and sinful.  I guess, I’m too young and inexperienced.  But I wouldn’t want to live that life, I wouldn’t want to hurt anyone just because I couldn’t come to terms with my own self.  That is twisted logic.  It’s sad that it happens to people, but it’s just not a good excuse to persecute others for being who you are.  Why not prosecute yourself then?  Why not kill yourself if the Bible says gays should be stoned to death?  We know damn well you cannot pray the gay away, those people never stop being gays, they never stop having same-sex attractions, and if they believe God hates gays and sends them to hell, therefore, those self-haters will inevitably go to hell themselves, no matter how many gays’ lives they’ve made miserable to “atone” for their own sins.  I don’t understand their logic.  And I cannot forgive them for continuing their crusade now (however, it’s not my place to forgive anyway).

      Bottom line is, I don’t hate them, but I also do not understand them and cannot forgive them for making our lives even worse by fighting against us and making up lies about us that they know are lies (for they are gays themselves and they know they are not like that), lies that sparkled baseless hatred and violence against people who lost their lives because of that.  For that I cannot forgive them, unless they come out and seek that forgiveness and admit they were wrong.

      — ♂KF

      • 49. Felyx  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:19 am

        Wow… don’t know what to say to that…

      • 50. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:19 am

        Well said K!
        Thank you :-)

      • 51. ĶĭŗîļĺęΧҲΪ  |  September 23, 2010 at 4:07 pm

        I’m gonna dissent from my own dissent.  After some consideration I am reminded of things that I believed when I was younger, and as I grew up I began to adhere to this world’s standards not being able to live under my own standards that are so different and that simply do not work in this world.

        I questioned Felyx about his comment and debated it with him, and I see the issue in different light now that I’ve thought about it.  Not only do I feel that I am being hypocritical for judging others, but I also believe that I should not be arrogant thinking I can forgive a human for being human (for I am just as human and just as likely to inflict suffering on others)!  We all do what we all do.  The right and wrong do not exist, it’s only our imagination, our standards that we impose on our civilizations because we are uncomfortable or scared.  There is little doubt now that murder is “wrong,” but it’s not wrong and it’s not right, it just is (as in “exists, happens” because that’s who we are, because we are capable of that).  Everything just is.  The difference is that we simply decide to make some things unacceptable because they frighten us and make us uncomfortable… like killing spree on humans… or like anti-gay measures…  It’s really all the same — opinions based in fear for our own lives or for something we’re not familiar with.

        What I’m trying to say is, it’s not my place to judge anti-gay people for being who they are, it’s not my place to forgive them for that either.  So, I cannot say I’m not forgiving them, and I do not really feel like that.  What I feel is I’m angry and mad as hell because of the consequences of their actions; those actions are not right or wrong, they are just plain hurtful for us, they hurt us for no good reason — and because of that I am MAD (and I do feel that it is my place to stop these people)!  And this ire is what really made me say those things.

        I do not judge, but I reserve the right to be mad at them (for this is my normal emotion that I have because I’m human), and I reserve the right to fight their opinions and seek acceptance from the general population to make the opinion about normalcy of homosexuality a mainstream one!

        — ♂KF

      • 52. Felyx  |  September 23, 2010 at 4:29 pm

        Wow… I love you Kyrill! ♂F♥K♂

      • 53. AndrewPDX  |  September 23, 2010 at 4:51 pm

        @ Felyx & Kyrill… The hearts and stuff just makes me want to say: Get a room! — in a loving way, that is.

        It always makes me smile to see the two of you carrying on, and I really can’t wait until you two lovebirds can get together in person. Your posts show the pain this separation causes you, and I hope and pray it will end soon.

        Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

      • 54. Felyx  |  September 23, 2010 at 8:06 pm


        Interesting observation, I too like watching us ‘carry on’. We have discussed our future together numerous times (and will continue to do so) because we want to make our relationship, and future marriage, work. I believe in expansive communication and in extensive preplanning and Kyrill is of a same mind. We had a long talk regarding our beliefs and feelings on this one and I for one learned a great deal about myself as well as about him. (I have no doubt that he would say the same, but, of course, that is for him to say.)

        Anyway, thank you all for being here for us, we couldn’t have possible done it without you!… LITERALLY!

        BTW, I have started writing Kirill’s name with a /y/ so as to help out with the missing vowel ‘habit’. The two /y/’s actually also give us a sense of unity. :`)


        PS: As regards to the room… working on it. Shooting for the end of the year. (And we will have it for almost three months! :P )

    • 55. Bob  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:33 am

      @Felyx, great rant, you got a load off, and I agree with it, we are alll the same, I tried to express some of that on another thread,
      anything we see and hate in another person is just a projection of what we ourselves are capable of. picking apart the other doesn’t make us better.

      And that is why I have so much honor for those people in Russia who stand up to confront the oppressor, at the risk of being tortured. They value themselves, and the only weapon they have is knowing that they are worthy, against all odds they harbor hope.
      Those people aren’t crying about their situation, they are fighting to change it.
      They do not let fear stop them, they endure pain, because they value themselves.
      I suppose that’s easier to do when you are starting from zero.
      If you gave them something else to hold onto, like the right to free speach, or even partial acceptance in the form of reems of paperwork to prove their relationship, and throw in a few laws to protect them from hate crimes. You’d get them to a place where they think they have too much to loose if they continued to fight for equality in the way they do.
      Theocracy in the states has taken a form never seen before, because it is not one church, but the results are the same, they control the gov’t, and are pushing harder, just read the link above. They are threatening to push harder from the pulpit, I say if they bring politics into the church they bring the fight there too, right into their holy sanctuary. If they cross the line, so can we.

      All this latest news has dampened our spirits, we’ve been enjoying some high times in our fellowship on this site, and it’s good , But I think we’ve just been hit by a little dose of reality.

      As you say the enemy is us, we need to nurture ourselves , keep positive in our hearts and minds in the knowledge that we are worthy, equal, and will harbor hope to live that out so it is visible to others.

      Each of us has our closet door to break, whatever form it takes, sometimes we realize it is ourselves who keep the door closed, for fear of what lies beyond, we have become complacent in warmth of our space, with the things we cling to, be it teddy bears, lack of harrassment, job securtity, family acceptance, and like you say, often when the door is broken, we loose these things,
      These things we loose are false comforts, bribes, stay there with those things and be silenced.
      I’m going to take a lot of flack for this, but the most blatant case of buying silence, and devaluing humans, comes in the form of DADT, and somehow people buy into that, to get themselves a job, I can say that because it’s only a projection on my part, I am fully capable of doing the same thing, I say the choice then is there’s , and I well remember what it was like holding a job before I was out.
      Different people have different reasons for doing things, and I won’t judge those.
      But this is definetly a case of those people in the military, holding onto a job and benefits, at the cost of eqaulity and freedom. They bought that package, I admire people like Choi, who faced that at all costs, and the women in the naval college who saw the writing on the wall, and stood up befoe she went any further.
      The end of DADT could be the moment, all those kept in bondage, slaves, giving their lives , fodder , for the freedom others enjoy, just simply dropped their chains and walked free.
      They are their own enemies, and Theocracies slave.

      The question I know is cost, and I have yet to here, did Choi loose his benefits, what did he give up for freedom.

      You’ve said we need leaders, and we look to the courts, or the congress , gov”t to find those, I say we’re looking in the wrong places. WE must lead ourselves, Choi is a great leader, the problem is people are afraid to follow.

      Because it means going to a place we have not been before, and sacrifice the securities we presently have in order to get their, to that place where there is no gaurantee. except the knowledge that lies at the core of our being telling us , we still have further to go, to find that peace for which we long.

      • 56. Felyx  |  September 23, 2010 at 4:34 pm

        Wow Bob… wow. Felyx

      • 57. Felyx  |  September 23, 2010 at 4:34 pm

        Wow, and thank-you. Felyx

    • 58. Carpool Cookie  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:37 am

      “to sit here and berate them, or accuse people of being like them, or even entertaining the idea that these gay men and women are hypocritical and less worthy is giving in to the very lies and hateful deceit put out by the true enemy who would see us all turn on ourselves and DIE!!!”

      Well……..the thing is, it’s not like these political figures don’t have other options. They are grownups. They are educated. They’re even white!

      They’re not like Jews who corroborated with Nazis in WWII to stay out of the ovens, or to buy visas for their family. They are exploiting fear and hatred for POWER, ATTENTION and MONETARY GAIN.

      If they’re conflicted about accepting that they are gay, I’d suggest they see a psychiatrist and fing healthier ways to deal with that conflict. And like I said, I have nothing against their being closeted. Just don’t hurt anyone else by doing it.

      • 59. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  September 23, 2010 at 12:06 pm

        Exactly!! I forgive a child for not knowing better, not an adult who knows better but chooses to ignor it.
        Well said Cookie!!

    • 60. Rhie  |  September 23, 2010 at 12:52 pm

      As Sinead O’Connor says “fight the real enemy!”.

      Interestingly, that version of War was never aired but is the most viewed clip of SNL ever.

  • 61. Straight Ally #3008  |  September 23, 2010 at 10:26 am

    If you want to be further dismayed, listen to Terry Gross’s interview with Jeff Charlet today (audio forthcoming) about the takeover of the military by fundamentalist Christians. It makes success of the anti-DADT repeal efforts, even in the face of public opinion, much easier to understand.

    • 62. Bob  |  September 23, 2010 at 1:41 pm

      Thanks for this Srtaight Ally #3008, this is a must read

      well I guess first listen, I have been going on about his book ThE FAMILY since the beginning of this site, and so I’m glad to here he has a new book out.

      PLEASE PEOPLE LISTIEN TO THIS INTERVIEW to understand what it is we;re really up against.

  • 63. Lesbians Love Boies  |  September 23, 2010 at 10:29 am

    HRC to NOM: Stop hiding your Minnesota election activities

    WASHINGTON – The Human Rights Campaign praised a federal court ruling this week that upheld Minnesota’s campaign disclosure laws from a challenge by lawyers representing the National Organization for Marriage (NOM) in its radical nationwide efforts to dismantle state laws that provide transparency about who is funding political campaigns.

    The decision comes as NOM has failed to disclose any of its political activities in Minnesota – and after controversial donations by Target and Best Buy to a committee supporting an anti-LGBT gubernatorial candidate saw the light of day because of the challenged law.

    “Once again a court has denied the cynical efforts of NOM and its cohorts to bring down disclosure laws that provide the public with essential information about who is spending money on political campaigns,” said Fred Sainz, HRC vice president of communications and marketing. “And once again NOM is trying to evade the laws by failing to report its state electoral work. It begs the question: what is NOM secretly doing to try to take away LGBT Minnesotans’ civil rights, and why are they fighting so desperately to avoid public scrutiny of their activities?”

    In rejecting the arguments made by NOM’s lawyers, Judge Donovan Frank wrote that “the voting public has an interest in knowing who is speaking about a candidate … and knowing the sources of election-related spending …. Invalidating the election laws at issue here would likely result in corporations [and organizations] making independent expenditures without any reporting or disclosure on the eve of the upcoming general election on November 2, 2010.”


  • 64. Seraphiel  |  September 23, 2010 at 10:42 am

    It’s gonna be a great day for justice when someone finds Mr. Perkins in bed with a male prostitute.

    It may be the only thing that’ll finally get that smug, worthless bastard to finally shut his stupid mouth.

    • 65. Felyx  |  September 23, 2010 at 10:59 am

      It would be better if Perkins just found someone he could love and be loved by and just be happy; happy enough to live and let live.

    • 66. Carpool Cookie  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:41 am

      Can we have a volunteer?

  • 67. Lesbians Love Boies  |  September 23, 2010 at 10:55 am

    Maine Panel: Trans Student Entitled to Restroom Privileges

    A trans student in Maine has won the right to use the girls’ restroom–again.

    The parents of the student, who was born physiologically male but identifies as female, had won an earlier complaint against the school district when the child was a fifth grader and denied use of the girls’ room. Now the student’s family has won a second case brought against the school district for having denied her use of the girls’ restroom when she was in the sixth grade in 2008-2009, reported local newspaper the Bangor Daily News.

    The first complaint was leveled at Asa Adams Elementary, which is part of the Orono school district. The second complaint was brought against Orono Middle School. Both cases were decided by the state’s Human Rights Commission, and both cases were decided in favor of the student.

    The student’s parents wrote that the school had “implicitly isolat[ed]” their child by requiring her to use a gender-neutral restroom, a policy that the parents said “alienat[ed her] from other students.” The parents said that their child was ostracized. The child no longer goes to school in the Orono school district.


    • 68. Kate  |  September 23, 2010 at 10:58 am

      What fabulous parents and what a strong kid!

      • 69. Lesbians Love Boies  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:02 am

        I agree…that’s real parenting!

      • 70. Felyx  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:12 am

        Just about every religion in the world (overt Church of Satan being an obvious exception) calls for individuals to love one another. Christianity, in every possible permutation, has the most codified example.

        Therefore, it is right to impose on these individuals to learn to love one another (with the exception of any self-proclaimed member of the Church of Satan that views love as optional).

        If you are going to call yourself Christian be careful to not look to hypocritical when you are called to live your word!

        Kudos to the parents for staying strong and being Christian… regardless of what they are calling themselves!


    • 71. Rebecca  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:19 am

      I think it’s sad that my initial reaction to this story was, “Hey! They used correct gender pronouns for a change!”

      I think correct pronoun usage is one of the hardest things even for LGB people to get used to. But it’s one of the most important and inclusive things we can learn!

      • 72. fiona64  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:26 am

        I am constantly after myself on this one, because a man to whom I was once engaged is now a woman. I finally had to decide to use male pronouns when referring to “back then” incidents and female pronouns for “now.”


      • 73. fiona64  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:27 am

        I should add that this lady is not part of my circle of friends nowadays; we reconnected through a series of coincidences, she reimbursed me monies from the canceled wedding nine years after the fact, and we wished each other well.


      • 74. Rhie  |  September 23, 2010 at 1:00 pm

        I agree! I learned that when I was on a Christian board with some jackalope who INSISTED on using the pronoun of male, when the person he was talking to stated more than once they identified as female.

        He even went so far as to tell this person that they were “really” a man, and were just “confused”, and they wouldn’t support that confusion.

        Seeing that and the hurt it caused…yea. I try hard to use the right words.

  • 75. Alan E.  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:08 am

    I found this article through the blog Pharyngula that I read (ironically) religiously. The article is called “The disease called ‘Perfection'” and discusses the expectations that society has about people, and it coincides very well with Dan Savage’s “It gets better” campaign.

    • 76. fiona64  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:25 am

      Boy, it’s a good thing my lunch break is in the next few minutes. I am so close to tears after reading that article.

      When I started doing Debtors Anonymous, I was scared to start telling people things like “I don’t have the money for that, so I must decline.” When my high-paying contract with a biotech firm ended and I didn’t have the money to do things that I used to, people who I thought were my friends melted away. What I learned is that the real friends are the people who say “Oh, that’s okay. Let’s do something else, then. Maybe let’s just talk and have a soda instead of having dinner.”

      I think of my friend who used to be a fashion model, who has subsequently had some health problems and become quite a large woman. She doesn’t want anyone who used to know her to see her — because she thinks they will judge her harshly.

      I think of my former friend who is indeed one of those self-loathing gay men. He’s out and all, but he fights against equality issues because he genuinely believes that discrimination is okay: he should be able to discriminate in any way he sees fit, you see, and so any anti-discrimination law means his own behavior is controlled by the “nanny state,” and that’s not fair to him. (I wish I were making that up.)

      I think of myself growing up, always trying to be the “best little girl in the world” so that my parents would love me as much as they did my brother, so that I would have friends, etc. No matter how hard I tried, no matter how good and perfect I was, none of it was good enough — so I obviously hadn’t tried hard enough/worked hard enough/been good enough.


      Just … wow.


      • 77. Felyx  |  September 23, 2010 at 8:13 pm

        Oh Fiona…

        I see the tears in your words. You really get it… it’s painful but deep down there is a sense of peace knowing that your suffering comes from a place of love and no longer from fear or self-loathing.

        I love you Fiona, I can say that and mean it. Felyx

  • 78. Lesbians Love Boies  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:14 am

    While I Was Out …

    Of the first of many happenings, Corey Johnson writes at Towleroad:

    Tonight I attended a highly anticipated fundraiser for the American Foundation for Equal Rights (AFER) in New York City at the Mandarin Oriental in the Time Warner Center. The fundraiser was co-chaired by former Republican National Committee Chair/Kohlberg Kravis & Roberts partner Ken Mehlman, Paypal Co-Founder Peter Thiel and Elliott Management hedge fund CEO Paul Singer.

    The AFER event, Johnson reports, raised more than $1 million for the organization fighting Proposition 8 in federal court.

    It wasn’t just AFER and theater in NYC, as the NAACP head visited the LGBT Community Center and Michael Lavers wrote for EDGE on the Net:

    NAACP President Benjamin Todd Jealous urged LGBT Americans to participate in an Oct. 2 march in Washington, D.C., that organizers hope will spur lawmakers to address unemployment, education and social justice. The Human Rights Campaign, the National Black Justice Coalition, GetEQUAL, Equality Wisconsin and the National Center for Transgender Equality are among the myriad of LGBT, labor and other progressive organizations that have endorsed the march.

    Full Article:

    • 79. Lesbians Love Boies  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:15 am

      Here is a video I found of the event at the LGBT Community Center: It’s a little wobbly…but some good questions from the listeners.

  • 80. Lesbians Love Boies  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:21 am

    LDS spread Oaks’ speech on Constitution, marriage

    Copies of a speech on the U.S. Constitution given by LDS apostle Dallin H. Oaks are being distributed throughout the country to college professors, journalists and other “opinion leaders.”

    The LDS Church’s public affairs office has asked members of the church who volunteer as regional public affairs coordinators to send the text to as many people as possible.

    In Oaks’ address, delivered Friday at the Salt Lake City Tabernacle as part of a secular celebration of the Constitution’s 223rd birthday, he emphasized that defining marriage is a power reserved to states. Last month, a federal district court overturned Proposition 8, California’s voter-approved ban on same-sex marriage, ruling that it violated the constitutional rights of gay men and lesbians. The San Francisco-based 9th Circuit Court is evaluating an appeal.

    “If the decisions of federal courts can override the actions of state lawmakers on this subject [marriage],” Oaks said, “we have suffered a significant constitutional reallocation of lawmaking power from the lawmaking branch to the judicial branch and from the states to the federal government.”


    • 81. Lesbians Love Boies  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:21 am

      Here is a link to his speech:

    • 82. fiona64  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:28 am

      Boy, I guess Elder Oaks needs to revisit Loving v. Virginia …


  • 83. Alan E.  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:21 am

    I’m very interested in reading the brief that was just submitted…

    • 84. Lesbians Love Boies  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:26 am

      The one by the Liberty Institute? Me too!

    • 85. Ann S.  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:43 am

      UPDATE: Liberty Institute amicus brief.

      Go to town, you guys!

      • 86. Alan E.  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:51 am

        Thanks Ann. I will write all of my comments in word and post it all at once. It starts out hilariously, though, by disrespecting the judicial branch of government completely.

        One of the most important civil rights
        for individual liberty is the right to self-government. The district court
        decision below threatens that right for the people of California. The judicial
        activism exemplified by the district court threatens the civil rights
        of many of Liberty Institute’s clients across the country. If the district
        court’s decision is upheld, the core principles that Liberty Institute fights
        for will be weakened.

      • 87. Kate  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:52 am

        Well, right off the bat they sound like this. (Not a legal nit, just one that ticks me off ‘cuz they’re hiding behind the words they don’t want for everyone else).

        LibertyInstituteisanon-protlawrmdedicatedtothepreser- vation of civil rights and the promotion of individual liberty. Liberty Institute represents clients across the country whose rights have been trampled by those in authority.

      • 88. Ann S.  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:58 am

        So, they’re all about liberty but only for their members, and they’re asking the judicial branch to rein in the powers of the judicial branch.

        Right! About what is to be expected of the so-called Liberty Institute.

      • 89. Alan E.  |  September 23, 2010 at 12:26 pm

        I am putting my reply in a word document. I am on page 3 and I already have 3 pages of my own!

      • 90. Ann S.  |  September 23, 2010 at 12:36 pm

        You go, Alan.

        They never do get to the Constitution. I guess they felt that that had been adequately covered by their buddies, they just had to put in a (lengthy) word for self-governance (but only as they define it).

      • 91. Alan E.  |  September 23, 2010 at 1:21 pm

        Ok here we go. It’s not as indepth as the FRC posting (coming soon!), but that’s because there wasn’t as much substance. Like others have said, it’s a lot of repetition of the same argument that doesn’t hold any muster.

        Page 1: Note that this is not even an argument section, just “Interest of Amici Curiae”

        One of the most important civil rights for individual liberty is the right to self-government. The district court decision below threatens that right for the people of California. The judicial activism exemplified by the district court threatens the civil rights of many of Liberty Institute’s clients across the country. If the district court’s decision is upheld, the core principles that Liberty Institute fights for will be weakened.

        Right off the bat, they decide to disrespect the entire judicial branch of government. I’m sure the judges are going to love being told that their jobs are to shut up and agree with the majority. They are confusing the part where legislation must meet the rigorous standards of the U.S. Constitution, and the courts’ job is to rule on that matter.

        Page 2: (second verse, same as the first)

        In brushing aside the will of the people of California—declared in two separate initiatives—for the novel idea that marriage may be between other groups than one man and one woman, the District Court sacrificed “the most fundamental individual liberty of our people”: the right to self-government. Empirical study demonstrates that the initiative process accurately reveals the will of the majority.

        Again, it is the job of the courts to determine whether the legislation is constitutional, not to validate that 50%+1 of the voting population supported the measure. That’s just one of those checks and balances Madison supported in Federalist Paper #10. Plus, you don’t need an empirical study to demonstrate that if more than 50% of the population votes for something, then a majority of the voting public supports it.

        Page 2:

        The United States’ government consists of checks and balances designed to limit the power of the various parts of the government, ensuring it follows the will of the people. As an additional check, many state and local governments provide for an initiative process by which the people may more directly express their will.

        Actually the initiative process is seen as an extension of the legislative branch. The actual checks and balances are the completely separate branches, like, say the courts.

        Page 3: This is a quote from Dr. John G. Matsusaka, who is pretty credible in the economics and social sciences worlds.

        “Not a single piece of evidence links the initiative to nonmajority policies as the special interest subversion hypothesis would predict. … [B]ased on the facts, the initiative serves the many and not the few.”

        I will first note that there is no citation for this quote, and really seems like it is taken from a book jacket. It also seems like common sense that the initiative process serves the many, but there also has to be leeway for protection of the few (those darn checks and balances things again) since it is a direct democracy vote. Too bad we live in a democratic republic that leans more heavily towards the republican side of things.

        Page 3:

        As the initiative process correctly serves as a check and balance against governmental appropriation of power, the District Court’s abrogation of California’s Proposition 8 is anti-majoritarian.

        3 words: checks and balances. Another 3 words: tyranny of majority.

        Page 3 (immediately following the previous quote):

        At times throughout our nation’s history, courts have subjugated the will of the people to the judges’ own desires, often with disastrous results.

        Translation for the judges: You guys have done such a crappy job at not letting the majority rule in every aspect of government, that we know that you will do the right thing this time around and bow to the majority.

        Page 3 (continue from above):

        Doing so is anti-democratic

        Democratic Republic. Please take PoliSci 101 again. I think they cover that in week 1, so you can drop the class and get a refund after that, but you might want to stick around for the whole thing.

        Page 3 (still):

        Such actions by unelected judges disregard that the Bill of Rights pro-vides that those powers not granted to the United States are reserved to the states and the people.

        That’s a nice argument for getting rid of DOMA, but my guess is that you won’t use that same line if you submit a brief in that case.

        The “argument” in the next section tries to raise the initiative process on a pedestal that is higher than the other branches of government, as if it is the Ultimate Presider over all things government. It can be used as a check, but it is not the final check. There is just too much to quote from here, and I’d rather not write a book. The continue to quote Dr. Masusaka to try and show that since the initiative process has tended to be more in line with the will of the majority (50%+1) of the public, the initiative process should be the final call. That logic does not follow if you consider the responsibilities of the other parts of government. And where do those powers come from? The people. If you want to change that, then you either need to scrap the entire Constitution, amend it, or leave the country to form your own (or find one that meets your needs).

        Page 7:

        Page 8: Title for section

        Self-government is foundational to California’s sovereignty and should not be lightly overruled.

        This is why there is a trial where each side is allowed to present any and all evidence to support their arguments. The trial was by no means overruling Prop 8 lightly. There just wasn’t any evidence for the Defendants and a lot for the Plaintiffs.

        The rest of this section is more tripe about the will of the people and activist judges. I won’t bother quoting unless there is an attempt at a real argument.

        Page 10:

        Again, in the Civil Rights Cases, 109 U.S. 3 (1883), the Supreme Court ruled that the Civil Rights Act of 1875, prohibiting discrimination by public accommodations, was unconstitutional, striking down the will of the people expressed through their representatives and setting civil rights back by eighty years. Had the Supreme Court engaged in judicial restraint and allowed the civil rights laws passed by Congress to stand, perhaps some or many of the thousands of lives lost to lynchings in the South might have been saved.

        It’s the judges’ fault that there was such rampant racism and discrimination throughout the country! If the judges would only keep their noses out of it, the racist people would have corrected themselves by seeing the error in their ways! Except in this case, the judges really were following the will of the majority.

        Page 11-12 :

        The Tenth Amendment of the Bill of Rights, which promises that “[t]he powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people,” should be preserved against a judge’s own sense of morality that he believes trumps the morality held by the people of California and most Americans for over two hundred years.3

        Granted, but there is the teeny tiny little fact about the rest of the Constitution still oversees the entire country and body of laws, and all laws must fit within its confines.

        Page 12:

        This nation was built upon principles of self-government that the District Court’s ruling brushes aside so that a new morality may be forced instead.

        Self-government and checks and balances.

        The last part is quoting the Declaration of Independence, insinuating that if this ruling will stand, our country will be no better than England in the late 18th century. The “new Guard” is then now us, and ends on a revolutionary note. It seems to me that Liberty Institute wants to ignore the other sections of government that has derived its power from…the will of the people!

      • 92. Alan E.  |  September 23, 2010 at 1:22 pm

        Wow I didn’t close a tag somewhere! Everything indented is a quote.

      • 93. Lesbians Love Boies  |  September 23, 2010 at 1:29 pm

        Put your reading glasses back on Alan…another one from The High Impact Leadership Coalition just came in.

      • 94. Ann S.  |  September 23, 2010 at 1:31 pm

        Gimme a second, and I’ll upload the new one.

    • 95. Lesbians Love Boies  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:51 am

      If the district court’s decision is upheld, the core principles that Liberty Institute fights for will be weakened.


      • 96. Rhie  |  September 23, 2010 at 9:14 pm

        Alan E-

        i thought the checks and balances served to make sure the laws passed either by initiative or legislature (state or federal) were consistent with the Constitution without regard to how many voted for it.

        Context for the quote in page 3: is here. It’s just one part of a long quote discussing the potential downside of the initiative process. It’s part of an introduction to a book where he takes a neutral position on the initiative process.

        Also, for I hope the last time: The USA is NOT a Democracy. It is a Democratic Republic. Therefore, the will of the people is not the only basis for law. Oi.

      • 97. StraightForEquality  |  September 23, 2010 at 10:23 pm

        The Tenth Amendment of the Bill of Rights, which promises that “[t]he powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people,” should be preserved against a judge’s own sense of morality that he believes trumps the morality held by the people of California and most Americans for over two hundred years.

        Not the judge’s sense of morality! It’s a matter of law, not morality.

    • 98. Lesbians Love Boies  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:57 am

      The four cases they cite:

      1. Civil Rights Cases 109 U.S. 3 (1883)
      2. Dred Scott v. Sandford 60 U.S. 393 (1857)
      3. Kiernan v. Portland 112 P. 402 (Ore. 1910)
      4. In re Winship, 397 U.S. 358 (1970)

      Talk about living in the past!

      • 99. Kate  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:58 am

        Dred Scott!! har har har har har

      • 100. Lesbians Love Boies  |  September 23, 2010 at 12:10 pm

        I thought Kelly J. Shackelford of the Liberty Institute was a good attorney. The brief reads like a criminal dramatic lawyer from the 20s…with added emphasis on the drama. I think I even hear typing noises!

      • 101. Ann S.  |  September 23, 2010 at 12:12 pm

        It is a bit bizarre how much time they’re spending so far on how self-governance is the be-all and end-all of democracy. Not sure they’re ever going to get around to addressing things like, y’know, the US Constitution.

      • 102. Rhie  |  September 23, 2010 at 1:34 pm

        They…quoted Dred Scott? One of the most infamous (now) cases in the history of SCOTUS? And they were being serious?

  • 103. Linda  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:31 am

    Interesting “massive victory”; we had more votes; we just lacked 3 (Reid’s negative vote was strategic) to override the filibuster.

    • 104. Kate  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:45 am

      I heard a right-wing host on KGO the other night who was sitting in for one of the regular progressive hosts. He kept jabbing us lefties, saying that Reid voted against us. He never once told how (maybe he didn’t even know?) that Reid had to vote that way in order to be on the “winning” side, which would then allow him (Reid) to bring up the repeal vote again later. It pissed me off so much, and it made me realize that’s exactly how the righties are spinning this all over the country.

  • 105. Tim in Sonoma  |  September 23, 2010 at 11:45 am

    Scribin’ And,

    “important questions on things like Marine warfare, Iraq strategy, and our role in Afghanistan all took a backseat to the General’s opinion on homosexuals in the military.”

    I question, If gays in the military is not as important as other issues, then why exactly are we even arguing about it?
    If you ask me he admits by saying that, that it’s just not a big deal and we should be worried about more important things.
    Then REPEAL it and lets move on and move forward for cryin out loud!

  • 106. Mackenzie  |  September 23, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    nice the the FRC blocked comments on their youtube movies…..”lets make up some BS and then prevent people from arguing with truth”…..gosh this pisses me off!

  • 107. Alan E.  |  September 23, 2010 at 1:24 pm

    Just as I finish that long post, another brief was submitted.

    • 108. Lesbians Love Boies  |  September 23, 2010 at 1:34 pm

      lol, I just finished reading your other one. Great points (and thanks so much, I had a hard time following it.)

      • 109. Lesbians Love Boies  |  September 23, 2010 at 1:35 pm

        A hard time following the one submitted, not yours…just to be clear!

      • 110. Alan E.  |  September 23, 2010 at 1:38 pm

        Yeah it was hard to see what other arguments they were trying to use, but it seems like the entire thing was “will of the people.” It also seems like they read the jacket and introduction to Dr. Matsusaka’s book. Yes they quoted page 114 (which they finally decide to cite after already presenting arguments from him without citation), but even then you could probably just read that single chapter based on a table of contents. I’m surprised they didn’t ask him to marry them. Maybe he should have been an expert witness, too?

  • 111. Ann S.  |  September 23, 2010 at 1:38 pm

    UPDATE: High Impact Leadership Coalition has filed an amicus brief on the side of the Proponents (Appellants).

    • 112. Alan E.  |  September 23, 2010 at 1:39 pm

      Crap 43 pages. Don’t expect much more from me today. I have to go back to work.

      • 113. Ann S.  |  September 23, 2010 at 1:40 pm

        Yeah, me too.

        Nice job on the LI brief, Alan!

    • 114. Alan E.  |  September 23, 2010 at 1:41 pm

      Already one of the section titles is throwing bells and whistles:


      It was created at that time, but it was intended to, and has been continually interpreted as, be rid of all discrimination. Nothing in the amendment says it must only be race.

      • 115. Ann S.  |  September 23, 2010 at 1:49 pm

        I hate to say it, but so far this looks like several African-American religious and other groups banding together to throw LGBT people’s civil rights under the bus.

      • 116. Alan E.  |  September 23, 2010 at 1:54 pm

        High Impact Leadership Coalition is Harry Jackson’s group, seen recently debating Lt. Dan Choi before the DADT cloture vote.

      • 117. Alan E.  |  September 23, 2010 at 1:56 pm

        The Frederick Douglas Foundation has this ironic quote at the top of the page:

        “Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy
        to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe.” – Frederick Douglass

      • 118. Ann S.  |  September 23, 2010 at 1:58 pm

        High Impact Leadership Coalition is Harry Jackson’s group, seen recently debating Lt. Dan Choi before the DADT cloture vote.

        Well, that figures, then.

      • 119. Alan E.  |  September 23, 2010 at 2:02 pm

        CURE and FDF both mention “limited government” in the interest section, but it’s ok if the people can use government when it is in line with their own views.

    • 120. Alan E.  |  September 23, 2010 at 1:49 pm

      ok try not to laugh at this section title.


      Baker is no longer the law of the land. There are 3 major cases that have taken precedence over Baker: Romer, Lawrnce, and Christian Legal Society v. Martinez, plus there is a 9th district case too (forget the name but Olsen mentioned it in response to High Tech Gays in the closing arguments).

      • 121. Alan E.  |  September 23, 2010 at 1:49 pm

        and I haven’t even begun to read the actual arguments…

  • 122. Lesbians Love Boies  |  September 23, 2010 at 1:57 pm

    At least, unlike Margie Reilly’s attorneys, they got the appellees and appellants correct.

  • 124. Michael  |  September 25, 2010 at 5:47 am

    Why does shrill anti-gay activist Perkins hate our troops and America? He wants to force our troops to lie which he knows is a sin. But why would a “Christian” want to force our troops to sin and endanger their souls? Unless of course, he had some evil personal agenda he was trying to put into effect? And why would unrepentant homophobe Perkins want to weaken America be forcing Big Government to maintain a policy which harms us by kicking out the very people we need to fight the war on terror? Doesn’t make sense except that it provides more $$$ for militant anti-gay actiivist Perkins’ pockets and puts off that coming day when he has to find a real job.


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