Breaking: 9th Circuit Court to hear Oral Arguments in #Prop8 Trial December 6

October 21, 2010 at 3:03 pm 95 comments

by Andy Kelley
New Media Organizer, Courage Campaign

The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals just announced they will be hearing oral arguments for the appeal of Perry v. Schwarzenegger, and of Judge Walker’s historic ruling finding Prop 8 unconstitutional, on Monday December 6th at 10am.

Once again, we will continue to bring you live updates and commentary on the case via the Prop 8 Trial Tracker. It’s important that we make sure as many people are able to track the trial as possible.

Will you help us spread the word by RSVPing to our event on Facebook and inviting your friends?

Thanks for all you do.

Update by Andy at 5:46pm:

The Scibd of the Oral Argument Notice courtesy of Kathleen:

View this document on Scribd

Entry filed under: Uncategorized.

VIDEO: NOM-driven Iowa For Freedom gets smacked down. Hard. President Obama’s video to LGBT youth: #ItGetsBetter

95 Comments Add your own

  • 1. Kathleen  |  October 21, 2010 at 3:35 pm

    I’ll be here! Btw, per the website for the 9th Circuit, audio for the oral arguments will be available by noon the next day:

    • 2. Kathleen  |  October 21, 2010 at 3:35 pm

      checking the box

      • 3. StraightForEquality  |  October 21, 2010 at 3:50 pm

        Yep, me too.

      • 4. Ronnie  |  October 21, 2010 at 5:49 pm

        me three….<3…Ronnie

      • 5. JonT  |  October 21, 2010 at 6:32 pm

    • 6. Ann S.  |  October 21, 2010 at 5:29 pm

      Yay, at least we’ll have audio. Video would be better, of course.

      • 7. Steven  |  October 21, 2010 at 6:02 pm

        it won’t surprise me if pro prop 8 attorneys try to stop audio of the oral arguments with USSC, but 95% chance they will deny them because 9th Circuit has been allowing audio and video for last 15 years, and USSC will start release audio their oral arguments………..

      • 8. Kathleen  |  October 21, 2010 at 7:25 pm

        The USSC releases audio of their oral arguments now, there’s just a significant delay between the arguments and the release of the recording.

    • 9. Rhie  |  October 21, 2010 at 7:16 pm

      Ooooh cool!

    • 10. JonT  |  October 21, 2010 at 7:25 pm

      Btw, per the website for the 9th Circuit, audio for the oral arguments will be available by noon the next day:

      I’m ashamed that I did not read this line when I subscribed to this thread.

      Very cool – guess what I’ll be doing when that audio becomes available :)

  • 11. Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan)  |  October 21, 2010 at 3:40 pm

    I will go to FB and RSVP and invite guests.

  • 12. Alan E.  |  October 21, 2010 at 3:44 pm

    I’ll try to be there. For anyone else who is going, be sure you are going to the correct federal building. The trial with Judge Walker took place on Golden Gate Ave. DO NOT GO THERE The 9th Circuit building is on the corner of 7th St and Market. There is actually another federal building across the street (with the siding that looks like it is still under construction). Be sure you go in the shorter, more classical looking building.

    • 13. Ed Cortes  |  October 22, 2010 at 7:04 am

      Isn’t 7th and Market the old location of the Greyhound bus terminal?

      And checking the box (More mail!)

      • 14. JefferyK  |  October 22, 2010 at 9:31 am

        I think Alan E. means what used to be a U.S. Post Office before the 1989 earthquake, which is at the corner of 7th and Mission? Not the newfangled federal building across 7th, which is where the Greyhound Bus Station used to be, I think?

    • 15. MJFargo  |  October 23, 2010 at 4:41 pm

      You are correct. 7th and Mission.

  • 16. Steven  |  October 21, 2010 at 3:44 pm

    They might allow tv broadcast of oral arguments……

    • 17. Kathleen  |  October 21, 2010 at 4:03 pm

      They might. AFAIK, there hasn’t been a formal request yet.

  • 18. Straight Ally #3008  |  October 21, 2010 at 3:46 pm

    How long does the process take? Any idea at the rough date at which we will know the result of the appeal?

    • 19. Kathleen  |  October 21, 2010 at 4:14 pm

      Per the scheduling notice, this case has been assigned a maximum argument time of 1 hour per side. It’s not clear to me if that is one hour per side in each of the two cases (main case & Imperial County) or if it means a total of one hour per side for both cases.

      This is an especially long period of time for oral arguments. The 9th Circuit usually allows between 10 and 20 minutes per side.

      As Alan pointed out, there are no other cases scheduled in that courtroom for the day, so I expect this to take up all the morning and probably part of the afternoon.

      As to length of time for a decision, I’d say a rule of thumb for most cases is 2-3 months, but this has been put on an expedited schedule, so if I had to venture a guess, I’d say about 30 days. I could be way off.

  • 20. CaliGirl  |  October 21, 2010 at 3:47 pm

    So, wait. Forgive me, I’m confused. Does this mean that they’re acknowledging that the other side has standing?

    • 21. Alan E.  |  October 21, 2010 at 3:52 pm

      No they will be arguing that at the same time.

      • 22. CaliGirl  |  October 21, 2010 at 6:37 pm

        I see. Thanks, Alan. :D

  • 23. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  October 21, 2010 at 3:56 pm

    So you will only be following the oral arguments on FB that day and not here as well? If so I am sad as I can not access FB from work :-(

    • 24. Andy @ Courage  |  October 21, 2010 at 4:09 pm

      Hey Mark,

      We’ll be updating the P8tt per usual here. Our event is intended to bring folks to our site to join the conversation and be up to date on breaking developments.

      • 25. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  October 21, 2010 at 4:30 pm

        Excellent! Sorry for misunderstanding :-)
        I will certainly send out the event notice to all my FB buddies when I get home this evening.
        Thanks for clarifing for me :-)

  • 26. 415kathleenk  |  October 21, 2010 at 4:07 pm

    any Bay area types planning to attend in person?
    I am going to go.

    • 27. Kathleen  |  October 21, 2010 at 4:16 pm

      I’m not a bay area person, but soooo wish I could go. My only hope is that maybe they’ll broadcast closed circuit into other courthouses and then I could watch in Pasadena.

      • 28. Gregory in SLC  |  October 21, 2010 at 5:35 pm

        DITTO!!!!!! Hi Kathleen!

      • 29. Kathleen  |  October 21, 2010 at 6:47 pm

        Hi Gregory!

    • 30. david v  |  October 24, 2010 at 9:52 am

      I attended most of the DI’s witnesses, as well as closing arguments. I hope to attend these oral arguments as well.

      Does anyone know how much room there is for spectators @ the Court of Appeal?

  • 31. Sagesse  |  October 21, 2010 at 4:16 pm

    Signing up to keep up.

  • 32. Gregory in SLC  |  October 21, 2010 at 4:30 pm

    Hallelujah! Great to see the date/time/place in writing for round 2. I feel good things coming soon for all of us! subs.

  • 33. Richard W. Fitch  |  October 21, 2010 at 5:09 pm

    Does it bode well for us that this is also St. Nicholas Day???

  • 34. bJason  |  October 21, 2010 at 5:13 pm

    When will our leaders stop telling a percentage of these children that they cannot own this…

  • 35. TomTallis  |  October 21, 2010 at 5:15 pm

    What, if anything, does anyone know about the judges who have been assigned. If they’ve set a date and time, then the must have assigned judges. No?

    • 36. Kathleen  |  October 21, 2010 at 6:46 pm

      We won’t know which judges have been assigned until Monday Nov 29. Names of the judges aren’t made public until the Monday prior to the week of argument.

    • 37. David  |  October 22, 2010 at 1:33 pm

      They have assigned judges to the panel but will not announce them until later. As Kathleen says, their usual practice is to announce them the Monday the week prior to the argument.

  • 38. Gregory in SLC  |  October 21, 2010 at 5:16 pm

    OFF TOPIC: but it’s official …. This may not mean anything to some but its a very big deal for Utah. Thank you Intermountain Healthcare!

    “By Kirsten Stewart
    The Salt Lake Tribune

    Published Oct 21, 2010 02:02PM
    Updated 7 Minutes Ago
    Intermountain Healthcare has joined the growing number of Utah employers extending health coverage and other perks to unmarried couples……………..

    • 39. Sheryl, Mormon Mother of a wonderful son who just happens to be gay  |  October 21, 2010 at 5:55 pm

      Way to go, Gregory, your hard work and patience paid off.

      Sheryl, Mormon Mother

    • 40. Kate  |  October 21, 2010 at 6:00 pm

      Congrats, Gregory — I’m so proud of what you were able to accomplish!!!!

      • 41. Gregory in SLC  |  October 21, 2010 at 6:06 pm

        It would be inaccurate for me to take all the credit. Based on the article, others were pulling for inclusion too….but yea, I was pretty darn persistent!

      • 42. Ann S.  |  October 21, 2010 at 6:07 pm

        Congrats for the part your efforts played in this then, Gregory. No need to be quite so modest!

      • 43. Gregory in SLC  |  October 21, 2010 at 6:17 pm

        Hi Ann :D

      • 44. Ann S.  |  October 21, 2010 at 6:19 pm

        Hi Gregory!!

    • 45. Gregory in SLC  |  October 21, 2010 at 6:01 pm

      Woot! nice to hear from both of you Sheryl and Kate :D

    • 46. Kathleen  |  October 21, 2010 at 6:48 pm

      Congrats Gregory. And well done!

      • 47. Gregory in SLC  |  October 21, 2010 at 7:35 pm

        Thanks Kathleen :D and THANK YOU for all the documents to pour over! Exhausting but Exhilarating to read through…and certainly Educational!

    • 48. Santa Barbara Mom  |  October 21, 2010 at 8:12 pm

      Wow, Gregory, way to go!! The wheels are rollin’ !

      • 49. Gregory in SLC  |  October 21, 2010 at 8:17 pm

        Hi SB*M* !

    • 50. Sagesse  |  October 21, 2010 at 8:27 pm

      Well done Gregory! One step at a time :).

      • 51. Gregory in SLC  |  October 21, 2010 at 8:35 pm

        tx Sagesse! Once I grasped the concept that civil unions are just not enough I became VERY impatient. However, I’m starting to accept the one-step-at-a-time approach…Arisha said something to that effect during the Vota tour. Her sincerity, care and dedication to the cause won me over(that we make progress one person, one act at a time)… .Glad as a whole we are picking up the pace of our steps though!!

      • 52. Sagesse  |  October 21, 2010 at 9:07 pm

        Gregory, you worked very hard on this… not alone, but you worked on it, and a group of people will benefit. What more can we realistically expect of one person… You made a difference.

      • 53. Gregory in SLC  |  October 21, 2010 at 9:18 pm

        Click on name for more…..

      • 54. Kathleen  |  October 21, 2010 at 9:28 pm

        I am in awe of your courage and persistence, Gregory. I was deeply moved by the letter.

      • 55. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  October 21, 2010 at 9:39 pm

        Thank you for taking time to read and comment about t Kathleen… I was motivated to persist by love for my hubby. *big sigh!*

    • 56. Fake Name  |  October 22, 2010 at 8:38 am

      CONGRATULATIONS!!! Gregory. I am so very proud of you and so very happy for your success. This is not only good for you, but every other LGBT person who works there. I did read your blog and that also was excellent. You made a difference and I am sure that you have inspired others to do the same thing.

      • 57. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  October 22, 2010 at 11:06 am

        thanks mystery person! Best wishes wherever you are and whatever challenges you face..

    • 58. Sara O  |  October 22, 2010 at 9:44 am

      This is huge, Gregory! Congratulations and very well done!

      • 59. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  October 22, 2010 at 11:07 am

        Hi Sara!!!!!!!!!!! seeing your name reminds I need to email you back! will do that now :D

      • 60. Sara O  |  October 22, 2010 at 1:02 pm

        Don’t stress on it at all, Gregory. When and if you have time is good :) (just passed 2nd interview and now playing the waiting game….who knows, maybe I’ll be waiting indefinitely).

      • 61. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  October 22, 2010 at 1:55 pm

        in case didn’t notice…I sent you an email :D good news about 2nd interview! ((HUGS))

  • 62. Michael  |  October 21, 2010 at 5:23 pm

    Hello all! So much respect for everyone here! I am certain this has been asked, but humor me…….IF the 9th grants marriage rights, will this also include Oregon?

    • 63. Steven  |  October 21, 2010 at 5:50 pm

      UNLIKELY and probably they want to make the decision narrow as possible.. Oregon has not filed a lawsuit

      • 64. Michael  |  October 21, 2010 at 5:51 pm

        Thank you.

    • 65. Kathleen  |  October 21, 2010 at 7:10 pm

      There are so many variable here, that it’s not a simple answer.

      IF the 9th Circuit decides this case on the merits — which might not happen if no one has standing to appeal — then the decision in the case will be binding on federal courts in the state of Oregon.

      However, a favorable decision from the 9th Circuit could be one that depends on facts that are unique to California. In that case, even though the decision would bind federal courts in Oregon, the factual situation in Oregon would make the case useless there.

      If the 9th were to come to a broad favorable decision–one that said any law which denies g&l couples the right to marry is unconstitutional–it would mean that Oregon’s current definition of marriage as being only between a man and woman would be unconstitutional, but that wouldn’t mean that Oregon’s law would automatically be struck down. The state could elect to abide by the decision and remove the ban voluntarily, or someone would have to bring a legal challenge, citing the decision in the Perry case from the 9th Circuit as controlling law.

      Did that answer your question? Or just confuse things?

      • 66. Michael  |  October 21, 2010 at 8:20 pm

        Much thanks! That was a clear, complete, concise and compact answer and I understand it completely!

        We will patiently wait to see how things go (which in and of itself is a miracle considering my lack of patience).


      • 67. BK  |  October 24, 2010 at 10:48 am

        I really wish we could speed all this legal mumbo-jumbo up even more. Although on an expedited schedule, these rulings will still be too long in coming. I hope everybody’s hard work (on equality’s side, that is…) pays off. :)

  • 68. Bob  |  October 21, 2010 at 5:34 pm

    Do we know the names of the three judges that will be hearing the case? Will the same three judges rule on the merit as well as standing or is that a seperate process? Will go to en banc?
    If standing is denied, then there will be no ruling on the merits, right?

    • 69. Kathleen  |  October 21, 2010 at 7:14 pm

      We won’t know the names of the three judges until Monday Nov 29 (a week before arguments). The standing issue will be taken up be the same panel. There’s nothing to suggest this will be heard en banc, just a three judge panel. Of course after the panel issues its decision, either party can request en banc review.

      I don’t expect to get a ruling on the merits if no one has standing to appeal. But I suppose anything is possible.

  • 70. Dave in ME  |  October 21, 2010 at 6:00 pm

    I have quit the facebook (and feel so free!) but I will definitely tell everybody about this!

    Dave in Maine

    • 71. Mark M  |  October 21, 2010 at 8:28 pm

      How??? How did you get the FB monkey off your back?

      • 72. Dave in ME  |  October 22, 2010 at 5:08 am

        Hey, Mark-

        I just deleted myself from it. There’s another option where you can sort of take a break and hide your profile, but this option, called delete, I think, will end it all! I deleted all of my photos and files to make sure that they would be gone. I took off all my personal information and had a bare-bones, empty, and boring profile when I did it. You get a message that says that you have two weeks to come to your senses and should you do that, FB will welcome you back with open arms! I never went back. All done. No more. No privacy issues, no distractions, no rushing to see who has said what about whom, etc. Back to real emails to friends to keep in touch-no short snippets of daily info as a passive substitution for keeping in touch.

        I will say that my birthday passed and I was a little miffed that my so-called friends had only depended on the facebook to remind them! Not one sent me an email to wish me happy birthday, the foo’s!

        I do think it’s a great organizing tool and I used it extensively during the No On One campaign here in Maine (the marriage-equality vote). But overall, I’m glad I’m out.


  • 73. Brad  |  October 21, 2010 at 6:22 pm

    You’ll get my support (though I’ve broken the Satanic chains of Facebook & feel liberated – welcome Dave !)


  • 74. Kathleen  |  October 21, 2010 at 6:51 pm

    Don’t know if this was reported yet. DADT back on, but with revised guidance on discharges:

    • 75. allen  |  October 21, 2010 at 7:08 pm

      I don’t know why, but reading that made me very very angry.

      What will Obama tell us if the 9th upholds DADT and repubs take control of congress and DADT is allowed to remain for several more years? Sorry?

      Nah, he’ll blame congress and move on to other matters.

      This tougher scrutiny bullshit is just that, bullshit. It’s not to protect anyone and its another political maneuver. I have a suspicion they are putting on a show for the courts to make DADT seem reasonable and humane.

      • 76. JonT  |  October 21, 2010 at 7:21 pm

        Based on what I’ve read of Stanley’s opposition to repeal of DADT, it seems clear that any DADT discharge request that makes it to his desk will be immediately stamped with ‘APPROVED!!!‘ just as soon as he can find the stamp.

        It’s ‘nice’ they’re trying to make it more difficult, but come on. Enough already.

    • 77. Lee  |  October 21, 2010 at 7:19 pm

      I have a facebook but don’t use it much so I don’t know how crap works. If we check “yes, attending,” does that mean we’re LITERALLY going to be in the building, that we’re going to view it online, or that we’re just passing along a message by doing that? I’m baffled. I’ll check yes if it’s passing along a message but I can’t be there, even online, if it’s at 10 AM because I’ll be at work.

      • 78. Ann S.  |  October 21, 2010 at 8:11 pm

        Lee, I clicked “attending” and in my case it means I’ll be on this website, manically hitting “refresh” every few minutes. But it will show up on your page and other people may see it and find out what’s going on.

    • 79. Bob  |  October 21, 2010 at 7:21 pm

      well who knows, but at least we caught them dickering with DADT, it kind of shows the law at least requires some dickering, but in the end it’s still unconstitutional…..revision included ho ho DADT has got to go

  • 80. truthspew  |  October 21, 2010 at 7:52 pm

    You all did an excellent job of transcribing the original trial. I can’t wait to hear the ridiculous notions of the appellants in this one.

  • 81. Dave A  |  October 21, 2010 at 7:56 pm

    When are the Amicus briefs for our side due? I am looking forward to reading them. Also, does anyone know which groups are actually planning on filing? I would love to see a coalition of states such as MA, IA, DC, and others to counter the states that filed for the proponents.

  • 84. Carol  |  October 21, 2010 at 8:21 pm

    I’m happy that those of us who can’t be present will able to listen the next day.

  • 85. Kathleen  |  October 21, 2010 at 8:41 pm

    Obama says “It gets better.”

    • 86. JonT  |  October 21, 2010 at 9:17 pm

      I have to give him props for that.

      What other President has done that?

    • 87. ElsieH  |  October 21, 2010 at 10:01 pm

      Had to laugh when Pres. Obama wanted LGBT youth to know that there is a world of possibilities for them…Just don’t plan on getting married, or fall in love with someone from another country or plan to serve in the military.

      RIck Warren as Inaugural Speaker + “Marriage is between a man and a woman because God is in the mix” +DOMA+DADT= I aint impressed. Sorry.

      • 88. Carpool Cookie  |  October 22, 2010 at 7:53 pm

        “Had to laugh when Pres. Obama wanted LGBT youth to know that there is a world of possibilities for them…Just don’t plan on getting married, or fall in love with someone from another country or plan to serve in the military.”

        Yeah, it’s uncomfortable.

        Can you say Mixed Messages?

        Very lame, on the face of it.

      • 89. Carpool Cookie  |  October 22, 2010 at 7:56 pm

        I wonder if it also mean you can’t be president if you’re gay, lesbian or bi? Because isn’t the president the chief of the armed forces, or some such title?

  • 90. Tasty Salamanders  |  October 21, 2010 at 9:02 pm

    I am just wondering, someone before was saying that people discharged from the military under DADT should file a lawsuit against the government for wrongful dismissal, or something along those lines.

    Anyhow if Congress appealed DADT a few weeks back when they got the chance before the ruling, would that have ruled out the chance of such a lawsuit due to the fact that it was simply removed as opposed to declared unconstitutional (although I guess a lawsuit could have been undertaken, it’s just they would’ve needed to prove that it was unconstitutional again).

    If Congress was to appeal the law now, rendering the current appeals void, there would still be a ruling on it’s unconstitutionality and thus a lawsuit could still be sought by any relevant parties?

  • 91. Fan  |  October 21, 2010 at 9:30 pm

    I’m a gay student from china studying in the US. I have been following the gay rights movement here and came to learn more about how the American government, especially te judicial branch works. I was a little surprised even in the land of the free freedom is not available for all. At the same time, I realized how important to be out and let people know gay people are their coworkers and friends and we are no different from anyone else. At the same time, when reasoning with the religious right doesn’t work, we have to fight with the religious right, who wants to write discrimination into the laws. I think I’m fortunate to be alive at this moment in this country. I’m from a country where human rights is barely heard of and the majority of the gay people there would marry the opposite sex and fool around with the same sex on the down low.
    I would’ve done the same thing had I stayed in china. Being exposed to the equality movement here taught me that I deserve marriage to the person I love and to be able to marry to that person is my fundamental right! I want to stay in this country and do my part to contribute to the long journey of gay rights movement. I feel my life would be more meaningful if I could contribute to this great but sometimes painful cause.

    • 92. Kathleen  |  October 21, 2010 at 9:33 pm

      Fan, thank you so much for sharing your experience and thoughts. We are fortunate to have you here in this country with us and here at P8TT!

      • 93. Fan  |  October 22, 2010 at 7:50 am

        Thank you Kathleen!

    • 94. JonT  |  October 21, 2010 at 10:06 pm

      Fan, I’m glad you found your way to this site.

      I remember growing up and thinking America was the ‘world’ leader in terms of human and civil rights. Of course as I got old enough to read the papers and watch the news, I learned how wrong I was. :(

      But the fight continues. We will win eventually. I am convinced of that. We do not have to lie and deceive — the haters do. That is their weakness.

      I’m glad you are here to join in the cause :)

      • 95. Fan  |  October 22, 2010 at 7:52 am

        JonT, I know we will win eventually. The tide has shifted and it’s on our side!


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