NOM quotes me and selectively, of course

January 6, 2011 at 8:11 am 287 comments

By Adam Bink

Ah, I see NOM, in a desperate move to divide advocates and “protect the kids”, quotes me out of context in their latest e-mail.

Dear Marriage Supporter,

Two weeks ago, NOM — and thousands of good people like you-called on national gay marriage groups to stop using shocking images of children spewing angry obscenities to raise money for their cause.

Thousands of people just like you have signed our petition to protect the kids.

NOM’s “Pink T-shirt video” is opening a lot of eyes to the hatred-inciting tactics of some prominent gay marriage organizations who’ve reportedly accepted more than $200,000 raised by this disturbing video.

Watch the video, with this warning: even with the profanities muted, it is still deeply disturbing. Make sure no children can see it, please, when you play it.

And pray for the children on this video mouthing the hate- and obscenity-filled scripts adults gave them to say-hatred against their friends, neighbors and fellow citizens who believe that marriage is the union of husband and wife.

NOM’s demand is simple: Stop using small children shouting obscenities to make your case and raise money for your cause.

Is that too much to ask!?

The gay press is getting nervous: One gay paper wrote: “The group’s first video Prop 8 is H8: Straight Talk on Gay Marriage has been viewed more than 2 million times. But its frequent – some would say excessive – use of the word **** has divided gay rights advocates.” Adam Bink of the Courage Campaign’s Prop 8 Trial Tracker [one of the groups profiting from the effort] says he “wasn’t thrilled about (a) the strategy of using kids (b) how the video would present to the movable middle.”

But so far, not a single so-called “mainstream” gay rights group has refused to accept the money.

That’s why I need your help today: Don’t back down now. Now is the time to keep the pressure on, to spotlight hatred and incivility and to insist on minimum standards of decency.

This kind of video has no place in a civilized society. Fight back by signing the petition.

And please, pass this on to a friend.

We have a short time to make sure that this kind of hatred does not go answered. We need your help to win a victory for decency, civility and kindness in America today!


Brian S. Brown

Oh, boy. Let’s unpack this.

1. NOM’s claim that Courage Campaign profited from the video is actually false. Courage hasn’t gotten one penny from the folks at FCKH8. I will now wait for Brian to use this quote out of context in some other e-mail. I can see it now: “Gay rights advocates rushed to distance themselves from the video… Adam Bink wrote that ‘Courage hasn’t gotten one penny from the folks at FCKH8’!” Come on, Brian. You know you want to.

2. The quote is a bit out of context. Here’s what I actually wrote (in a piece about how sad and typical it is that NOM is fundraising off kids themselves):

Like Jeremy Hooper, I liked the video but wasn’t thrilled about (a) the strategy of using kids (b) how the video would present to the movable middle. I think some tactics are meant for rallying the base and exciting marriage supporters- which this clearly was and did- while others are not. There wasn’t much in the video about responsibility, commitment, equality, or other messages shown to be effective to persuading open-minded non-equality supporters. You can’t argue with raising $200K, but I might have tweaked how it was done a bit to appeal universally.

On the other hand, like Jeremy, I think NOM using kids to attack the use of kids is, well typical. And for all the concerns about the FCKH8 video, raising cash off this is far worse. As you know from my writing around the NOM bus tours, I’m never one to stay away from confrontational tactics, so if NOM is going to take this and use it in the way we all knew they would, it only further drives me to kick their butt in 2011.

NOM conveniently ignored the part where I said I liked the video, and you can’t argue with raising $200,000, and that I don’t stay away from confrontational tactics like the video, in a kind of desperate effort to drive a wedge among “gay rights advocates”. Sorry, Brian, you’ll have to do better than that. Just because one has suggestions for improvement doesn’t mean they are “getting nervous” or opposes an effort.

3. You know what they say, if the haters quote you, you must be doing something right.

So here’s to a badge of honor for all of us here at And if you feel like pissing Brian off and making his efforts backfire, I bet your $5, $20 or $50 contribution to would ensure much gnashing of teeth over in NOMville. We’re the #1 Google search result for “Prop 8 trial” and I’m sure keeping it that way with a tax-deductible contribution would really make Brian’s day.

Entry filed under: NOM Exposed, Right-wing.

Joining the fight in New Hampshire Chick-Fil-A’s WinShape Foundation: Now partnering with NOM’s Ruth Institute

287 Comments Add your own

  • 1. Kathleen  |  January 6, 2011 at 8:17 am

    • 2. Ann S.  |  January 6, 2011 at 10:27 am


      • 3. JonT  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:26 pm

        • 4. RebeccaRGB  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:39 pm

  • 5. AndrewPDX  |  January 6, 2011 at 8:24 am

    Profiting? NOM dares to talk about profits, when they are constantly in trouble with the IRS and campaign finance laws? NOM talks about tracking money when they try to hide their owners million dollar donors?

    How much more hypocrisy is needed before they collapse into a black hole of moral bankruptcy?

    Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

    • 6. Ed Cortes  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:06 am

      Thyey haven’t collapsed into a black hole of moral bankruptcy yet?? I thought that had happened in 2008!!

      • 7. Melissa  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:26 pm

        Wishes fervently that there was a like button for Andrew’s post, and for Ed’s response to it. :)

  • 8. Ed  |  January 6, 2011 at 8:26 am

    BTW, I am now officially blocked from posting on NOM’s site. This too is a badge of honor :)

    • 9. adambink  |  January 6, 2011 at 8:36 am

      It is!

    • 10. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 8:41 am

      Congratulations to Ed!!!! : D

  • 11. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 8:35 am

    I had MUCH to say on the video….I first watched NOM’s video…then the original…..

    My very LENGTHY response to this can revisit here, comment #31:

    btw – the kids and families depicted in the FCKH8 video seem AWESOME! Anyone willing to pray for Brian’s kids?

  • […] Oh, boy. Let’s unpack this. […]

  • 13. Kathleen  |  January 6, 2011 at 8:46 am

    The Perry case has been officially docketed at the California Supreme Court as
    Case number: S189476

    This is just procedure, nothing substantive has happened, but it gives people a case number for reference.

    • 14. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:09 am

      Oh! tx!

    • 15. Leo  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:23 am

      Speaking of which: we’ve heard estimates of months before CASC issues an opinion, but is there any estimate how long it will take them to either accept or reject certification?

      • 16. Kathleen  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:54 am

        I would think that would happen pretty quickly, given how important this is. In the PJI appeal, they docketed the case one day and closed it the next.

        But I think there’s very little chance that they won’t take this up–again, because it’s an important issue in an important case. But then, I’ve been known to be wrong before. ;-)

        • 17. Ann S.  |  January 6, 2011 at 10:31 am

          I agree, and I predict that they’ll request briefs and schedule oral arguments. However, nothing says that they have to, and I’ve been wrong before, too.

          • 18. Elizabeth Oakes  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:22 am

            No ladies: they clearly got their procedure wrong when they failed to do what you told them to. THEIR BAD

    • 19. Meagan  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:20 am


      I saw on another page that you were wondering about alternatives to PACER.

      I found this site (don’t know if it’s useful):

      And there’s also a plugin for Firefox called RECAP, which will allow you to see PACER documents for free, as long as someone else using the plugin has paid for them (which should save you at least a little bit of money, anyway).

      I hope that’s helpful!

      • 20. Kathleen  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:56 am

        Megan, thank you for the freedocket site! Unfortunately, US circuit courts of appeal aren’t available yet, but the district courts are. That will be definitely be helpful.

        I have the recap plugin installed already and for some reason, it’s never kicked in. I think I need to study it; I may just not understand how it works.

        But thank you!

        • 21. Meagan  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:01 pm

          I’m honored I could help–thanks for all you do for our community. :)

        • 22. Peterplumber  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:08 pm

          I subscribe to PACER and don’t mind paying for the docs. If you would like a copy, feel free to email me.

          • 23. Kathleen  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:34 pm

            sending an email now.

  • 24. Ronnie  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:00 am

    Wow …Brain Brown & NOM really do have not one original thought in their brains….not mention that are still illegally using someones else’s copyrighted property to beg for money…I mean get dumb as all-get-out sheeple to bow down to them…..I mean their ill-fated cause & attacks towards children, teens, families, & individuals who do not bow down to them…..I mean their Fascist schema…… : I …..Ronnie

  • 25. Mouse  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:10 am

    If you have even the smallest shred of integrity, you make sure to understand the context from which you quote others.

    If you are NOM, you aren’t hindered by integrity, reality, the truth, morality, or goodness.

    • 26. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:25 am


    • 27. Dave in ME  |  January 6, 2011 at 10:25 am

      And many of those who read the blog and the emails will not be bothered to follow up and verify what he says.

      I had to search the web to find that actual “H8” clip-they didn’t provide a link to it and I doubt that very many people who read that email from NOM would bother doing that.

      Dave in Maine

      • 28. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:38 pm

        I was VERY apprehensive to watch the original after watching NOM’s rebuttal video….but did it anyway and LOVED it! I find Brian manipulative (as usual) by not including the original as some might have found its not as he portrayed it to be….and some might have said “what’s the big deal?”

  • 29. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:27 am

    Why was this FCKH8 video even made? That is the most moronic thing I’ve ever seen! Those people need to get their butts kicked. How on earth could they possibly believe this would get anyone anywhere. Even if it was just adults it’s completely counterproductive. Makes us look like a bunch of foul-mouthed brats. If this video does cause problems (which it already is), I have nothing but disgust for FCKH8. Actually, I am disgusted already. I cannot get over this. Ridiculous. Taking us several steps back in our fight to show how decent we are to the homophobes.

    • 30. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:31 am

      seems you agree with Brian ; )

      I was skeptical but ended up loving it and it actually helped improve my relationship with hubby and daughter….if you care learn my reasons see comment #31:

      • 31. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:38 am

        I don’t agree with Brian on anything, but this sure gave him dirt to spread to his supporters. If you have no problems with the F-word being spewed continuously , and with several children saying the word and flipping off the camera, then that’s your right. For me, kids swearing at ANY time is inappropriate. That’s a reason why they could get detention in school. If I had kids, I wouldn’t let them watch any movie with so much swearing. I’ll have to check out #31 because I’m completely confused on how this video could possibly move the gay rights movement ahead and not backwards.

        • 32. Mouse  |  January 6, 2011 at 10:07 am

          You can’t worry about what will give low-life scum dirt; they’ll dig it up regardless.

          I see the FCKH8 as an attempt to harness the anger felt from the constant barrage of attacks and slanders from the likes of NOMnuts and turn it into something funny and positive. Not everyone will appreciate the humor, of course, which is true of any attempt at humor.

          • 33. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 10:23 am

            Like this scene? ; ) WARNING: liberal use of “F” word!

          • 34. Dave in ME  |  January 6, 2011 at 10:23 am

            Yes, that is a good point. Anything that our side says or does could be taken out of context and manipulated for their benefit. And I did notice that I had to look for that clip myself-the link was not provided in Mr. Brown’s NOM email. Maybe I didn’t really pay full attention to it, but I didn’t see it as humorous-just a bunch of angry gays, lesbians, children, and whatever cursing and being angry, which fulfills one of the many stereotypes out there.

            I think that using the term “H8” helps to perpetuate the false notion that all those who voted for or supported prop 8 are “haters.” I know that many people here in Maine voted yes on 1 because they were ignorant of the truth and had been mislead. Sure, some of them do really hate us, but not all and continuing to use the term “H8” and “hater” in reference to supporters of 8 doesn’t help us win the hearts and minds of the middle.

            Dave in Maine

          • 35. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:05 am

            I appreciated your remarks Dave. Hits home as I don’t see my family as haters either…but I bet some contributed to pass prop8 because the Mormon church told them too. I have the hope they would not do so now as I’m educated them from a position of LOVE (not hate).

          • 36. JonT  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:41 pm

            You can’t worry about what will give low-life scum dirt; they’ll dig it up regardless.

            Exactly. Or they will just make it up. NOM & Friends have done that too.

      • 37. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:40 am

        Ok, I’m not seeing #31. Where do I go?

      • 38. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:40 am

        Nevermind. What a sad question… you gave a link.

        • 39. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:42 am

          tx for taking time to review : ) Best of everything to you JoeRH

        • 40. Dave in ME  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:57 am

          I also questioned the use of children in that video. I know there’s a lot of anger surrounding this issue and, living in Maine and having been part of the “No on One” campaign, I feel it too. But what was the point of using children in this clip, especially when it would be so clear that it would be used against us by NOM and their ilk.

          Dave in Maine

          • 41. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:53 pm

            I say tell it like it is. If some people swear openly, well there you go, some people, even children swear. For a poignant but wonderful example of hypocrisy watch “A Christmas Story”. The kid is severely punished for talking just like his father when he got upset.

            LOL, OMG, I was just talking to a hospital administrator on the phone while typing the above comment and she declared “please just fix the DAMN thing” …and she quickly apologized for swearing.. I laughed out loud and told her THANK YOU for expressing your self openly and honestly…tee hee..

          • 42. Carpool Cookie  |  January 6, 2011 at 10:22 pm

            I don’t really have a response to the video one way or another….but I think it does show that times have changed, while homophobia and people who want to push LGBT people to the back of the bus (or under it, if they had their way) have not….since around the 1400’s.

            The people in the video are the people effected. And they don’t like it.

            (And I imagine there are some straights in there, too, right? I think that’s the glorious and hopefull thing about where we are now. When NOM or Bill O’Reilley mouths some blanket statement like “What the gay community wants…” I think NO! It is what DECENT, UNIFIED, ENLIGHTENED people want. We’re a team now.)

          • 43. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 7, 2011 at 7:31 am

            Brilliant/helpful insight as usual….
            “The people in the video are the people effected. And they don’t like it.” [ABSOLUTELY!]

            “It is what DECENT, UNIFIED, ENLIGHTENED people want”

            Thank you for all your contributions on this topic …Much of this is fairly new territory for me : ) Love, Gregory

          • 44. Carpool Cookie  |  January 7, 2011 at 12:29 pm

            Why thank you, Gregory! That’s very kind : )

            My mom was an educator, and even when we were age 6 or whatever and would run to her to report that some other child or sibling had “said a bad word” she’d reply, “There are no bad words.”

            Words represent things, thoughts, responses, situations, etc. That is what it’s often helpful to identify, rather than dwelling on a specific word choice. What is behind the words. Here it’s anger, outrage, frustration, pride, self-worth and solidarity.

            And it’s so weirdly disconnected (and I think, funny) for NOM to be so appalled and all aflutter that their religious war has actually incited ANGER in people. How do they THINK people would respond?? It’s 2011!

            Jimminy Christmas!

      • 45. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:45 am

        Ok. Read it. I guess you don’t see the F-word as an obscenity, it’s just schools, most parents, and television that think it’s obscene. Honestly, the fact that it is so inappropriate in so many other parts of life does suggest that the word is a foul word no matter how it’s used. Like I said, it’s your right to interpret the word as you like it, and to approve of your child saying it, but in society, that word will always be an obscenity no matter if you or others find it completely innocent.

        • 46. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:48 am

          Again, I sincerely thank you for taking time to read. My comments are BLOCKED at work so can’t even review them myself…another indicator that the “F” word is not generally acceptable. However, I do not agree its bad just because many/most say it is. It reminds me too much of how “gays are bad because everyone knows…”

          Peace and Love

          • 47. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:51 am

            p.s. I find words like STUPID, SHUT UP, IDIOT, NOM much more offensive… but really, its just because of the meaning I attach to those words…

          • 48. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:07 am

            I guess that’s where are problems are: you interpret the F-word as being more benign than simple words like stupid and idiot. Is it worse to call someone a f****r than calling someone an idiot?

          • 49. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:29 am

            JoeRH – I don’t like name calling in general! I place more meaning (and thereby more sensitive) about the word “idiot” so I personally find the “i” word more offensive.

            I don’t see it as a problem though… I see it as we are culturally diverse.

          • 50. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:36 am

            Yeah, I guess it’s an agree-to-disagree thing.

          • 51. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:39 am

            I agree to disagree : ) I ABSOLUTELY understand the aversion many have for that word…as I held it too…for only 40 years ; )

        • 52. fiona64  |  January 6, 2011 at 10:29 am

          Words are just words. The “f-word” was only considered an obscenity once the Normans took over England and began eradicating the Anglo-Saxon language. In fact, most things that we deem “obscenities” nowadays come from the Anglo-Saxon language — which is also the language that brought us Beowulf.

          /etymological rant


          • 53. Ann S.  |  January 6, 2011 at 10:40 am

            Thanks, Fiona, I love etymological rants.

            I agree with Adam — this video isn’t aimed at the middle-of-the-road audience, it’s aimed at the portion of equality supporters who will appreciate it. Would I have made this? No. Is it bad that it was made? I don’t think so, even though it does make me somewhat uncomfortable and it was predictable that it would be used against us. I know people will disagree about this. If it motivated its target audience, that’s great. Did it further motivate the other side? I’m not sure we can tell to what extent it did that, but I admit it might have. Did it alienate supporters? I haven’t heard that it did, but that’s possible, too.

            Of course, the only way to tick off no one at all is to do nothing, and we all know what that accomplishes.

          • 54. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:24 am

            Yay! Its Fiona(and Ann)!

            I’m very much appreciating the comments here from all perspectives. It underscores how the meaning we give things is our “ultimate truth”.

            I would also like to say that I received Fiona’s book in the mail and have been enjoying it immensely : ) Its is a charming, hopelessly romantic novel, with important historical undertones of how ridiculous laws can be. In this case, shows how limited woman’s rights were and the consequences. Love it for intelligent writing style, for the knowledgeable information about the Equestrian Arts, and because its written my someone I love, appreciate and admire!


          • 55. Elizabeth Oakes  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:26 am

            Which is why, when clients drop the F-bomb in front of me and then ask me to “pardon their French,” I remind them it’s actually Anglo-Saxon and then I immediately bark it out myself to put them at their ease (as I have some Welsh heritage, it could be considered part of my native tongue.)

          • 56. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:31 am

            I’d like to know what Elizabeth Oakes does for a living. I’ve never worked anywhere where that would be shrugged off by the boss.

          • 57. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:36 am

            My boss(s) is open minded that way…. Health Care Organization with 60,000 employees.

            Could tell you a whole story about why I know this to be true.

            Movies show the big bosses use the French(F) word liberally –

          • 58. Elizabeth Oakes  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:38 am

            I work for myself and I AM the boss, and I don’t shrug it off. It’s a way to show I don’t judge people on their use of language and that I’m not a prude about how people express themselves…unlike some anti-marriage equality organizations I could mention.

          • 59. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:44 am

            Elizabeth- this isn’t about expressing yourself in general conversation. This is about expressing yourself like this (and having children do it to) in something anyone in the world could see. No matter how lenient you are with the word and your clients, most people would agree that this was distasteful. Has nothing to do with the intolerance NOM has with gay rights, but rather what FCKH8 has done with their use of children. I’d agree with you if it was all adults, but children completely changes the situation.

          • 60. Meagan  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:48 am

            I work as a research scientist for the USAF, and my boss has no problems cussing around me. The expectation is that if you’re not in front of your mom, profanity isn’t a problem, and that if you’re any kind of a professional, than you know that sometimes dropping the f-bomb is the only appropriate way to respond to something.

            I think it’d be more of a problem for me professionally if I got a case of the vapors whenever a four-letter word was spoken.

          • 61. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:00 pm

            JoeRH – I truly do appreciate your passion and respectful dialogue today! If you care to expand your socialization on this and other topics I sincerely recommend you study The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom, A Toltec Wisdom Book by Don Miguel Ruiz


          • 62. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:43 pm

            Meagan- having swearing to be a non-issue at work is, once again, different than having children use those words. You say as it’s not in front of your mother, but how many mothers have seen this video?! And if you’re any kind of professional, the use of cuss words does not come off as professional but rather less intelligent. There are plenty of ways to make your point without using swear words.

          • 63. Elizabeth Oakes  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:54 pm

            @JoeRH, I was responding to fiona’s etymological rant, not the use of children in the video, and I think you’ll find few people would use the word “unintelligent” referring to me.
            However, I have now been informed of your opinion on both matters, thank you, and respectfully disagree.

          • 64. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:58 pm

            My Mormon, Temple going (attending “Temple” demonstrates high level of faith) Mom found it truthful and powerful and has no problem with self-expression. Ironically when younger I used to criticize my mom for swearing….I guess us kids SHAMED her out of swearing because she gave it up some 20 years ago.

            Any Moms out there approve of the H8 video?

          • 65. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:00 pm

            thanks E.O. for your example…I’ll let it rest to as I think I’ve made it quite clear where I stand on this.

            P.s. I find your comments, as always, witty, delightful and ethical!

          • 66. fiona64  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:07 pm

            Aww, Gregory! Now I’m all blushing and stuff.


          • 67. fiona64  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:10 pm


            I helped promote an amazing Icelandic film called Beowulf and Grendel, and one of the big complaints we heard from audience was about the “modern language.”

            In reality, the screenwriters had made a deliberate decision to use Anglo-Saxon words for the Danes and Geets and Latinate/Norman words for those from other cultures to help delineate the differences in how language was used. The “f-word,” “c-word” et al. are not even remotely modern.

            And honestly? If you (general you) haven’t seen this film, you should. It is an intelligent and insightful examination of the dangers of prejudice.


          • 68. fiona64  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:11 pm

            @JoeRH: You have clearly never worked in the newspaper business.

            Love from a former editor-in-chief who has been known to swear like a stevedore with Tourette’s syndrome,

          • 69. Elizabeth Oakes  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:12 pm

            Ah Gregory, you wuvable lug, ya. (I was going to drop the F-bomb in there somewhere for emphasis but I refrained so I wouldn’t be thought “less intelligent.”)

            Besides, I’m so busy trying to figure out how to inform the estates of Norman Mailer, William Burroughs, Alan Ginsberg, and James Joyce (et al) how much less intelligent they are than other professional writers. It will come as quite a shock to the City Lights bookstore and the Library of Congress, I think.

          • 70. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:21 pm

            @Elizabeth Oakes – I doubt many people would refer to be as being unintelligent either, yet I still recognize the use of swear words not making one sound intelligent. People who run out of normal words swear. Like Seth Rogen. Can’t say a sentence without throwing the F-word in.

            I guess we will have to disagree, but I’m honestly taken aback by how liberal people on here are with children cussing. I’ve said earlier that if it was just adults, I wouldn’t care. They messed up when they used kids.

          • 71. fiona64  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:23 pm

            Elizabeth: Please be sure to include Seamus Heaney, Jack Kerouac, Hunter Thompson and a whole host of intelligent authors (and their estates) while you are at it.

            While I went to great lengths to avoid using the f-word in my own novel (in part because it is semi-epistolary and the protagonists would be unlikely to use the word in their historical contexts), I do concur that sometimes it is the right word.

            Would I necessarily have made this video? No. However, those kids were in it with their parents’ permission and blessings. If we don’t want the NOMbies to dictate how GLBT families and their allies rear their children, why on earth should *we* do the exact same thing?

            A long-time friend of mine also curses up a storm periodically, and her daughter took up the habit for a while (said daughter is now 10). Rather than try the “do as I say, not as I do” routine, the rule became “Not in front of Grandma, who hates those words.” The result was that the fascination and “taboo” of those words was gone in fairly short order — because no one made a big stink about their use.

            Fiona (who agrees that words have power, but that none of them are good or bad per se. It’s all in the attitude of the listener and/or the speaker.)

          • 72. Meagan  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:23 pm


            While I don’t swear in front of my mother, my great grandmother has no problem doing it in front of the entire family (my mom included)–after all, as she says, “shit isn’t a cuss word, it’s something you do!” So there’s one ninety-year-old mother who wouldn’t bat an eye. :) I know many mothers who have no problem with profanity, and I will teach my children how to use it properly to express themselves.

            For me personally, if people swear around me in the workplace, I take it as sign that they trust me enough to relax around me and be more open, and I feel more able to speak my mind in turn. In a cooperative environment like a research lab, this is important, and I certainly don’t think anyone with a PhD is less intelligent because they describe something with a profanity.

            I suppose I simply don’t get what all the fuss is about. I see no reason to protect kids from strong words or pretend that kids who are allowed to express themselves in those terms don’t exist.

          • 73. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:27 pm

            @fiona64 – Who cares about the newspaper business? What on earth does that have to do with the topic in question?

          • 74. fiona64  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:31 pm


            My comment was specifically in response to your remark: “And if you’re any kind of professional, the use of cuss words does not come off as professional but rather less intelligent. ”

            Hence, my comment that you had clearly never worked in the newspaper business, which is rife with some of the most intelligent people you will ever meet — and where you had better not have the vapors if someone drops an f-bomb.

            What this really has to do with, at this point, is that you are getting your knickers in a giant wad over something that is, frankly, none of your business: to wit, how other people rear their children and grant them permission to say and do.

            Get down of the cross, little man; somebody needs the wood.

          • 75. AndrewPDX  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:50 pm

            My 2 cents on the use of the F word… As Meghan says above, “sometimes dropping the f-bomb is the only appropriate way to respond to something.” like when expressing outrage/anger/frustration as in the video. Watching the video, it seemed “applicable” to me.

            When the F-word is used for every part of speech, it loses the emotional impact; then, it is not applicable.

            When taken out of context, as NOM has done, it’s even less appropriate, as the NOMzies don’t even realize we’re saying the F-word at their particular form of hate.

            Personally, I did find the over-use of the F-word to be too much for me. I would have instead made a vid of the personal stories of why they were saying the F-word, and ended each with “… And that’s why im saying FU.”

            Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

          • 76. Carpool Cookie  |  January 6, 2011 at 10:39 pm

            I work in an office that has 5 very successful attorneys in it. None of them hesitate to use any words they want at work. It is funny, though, that what comes out of my mouth when I make a mistake is “DAMN it! (And I’m practically the youngest one there.)

            Little Mary Sunshine, that’s me…

            But I’m not offended by words that aren’t slurs. This is the 21st Century, not the era of Queen Victoria. I actually tend to get exasperated by homoganized, watered-down speech. Which is why I have such a problem listening to politicians who play to the widest audience possible. Their language becomes so smoothed out it’s meaningless, and doesn’t even register. It would be actually very refreshing to hear a politician say, “We are really f@cked up as a country right now.” (And then elaborate, of course.) Because we are.

    • 77. Ronnie  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:47 am

      It is not in any way what-so-ever taking us back any steps…what NOM is doing is proving that they (NOM) are guilty of doing exactly what the video says they are guilty of doing…bullying….NOM goes on & on about freedom of speech & expression…but low & behold…here they are trying to bully FCKH8, an organization that has done more for children & teens….especially for the LGBT children & teens that NOM attacks…. in its few months then NOM has done in its 4years of existence w/their (NOM) talking point of “protect children” in which they have not done one thing for children..other then attack them.

      To your last point…”show how decent we are to the homophobes.”…..why should we have to?… Heterosexuals invented the “F” word…they use it all the time…why do LGBT people have to live up to a higher standard?….What we say & words that we use are straws that the homophobes grasp at…that is not the problem they have…they already see us “indecent” because we do not live our lives the way they demand we do…..when in FACT…NOM & the rest of their ilk are the indecent ones….& you can take that fact to bank….<3….Ronnie

      • 78. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:53 am

        HUGS to you Ronnie! Well said ! This topic gets my blood a boiling!

        • 79. Ronnie  |  January 9, 2011 at 12:03 pm

          www Hugs to Gregory…..Ditto…. ; ) …..Ronnie

      • 80. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:02 am

        It’s one thing to express freedom of speech and expression, but to use something like this as a way to either further the cause or bring attention to it isn’t helpful. I know all about NOM’s twisting of things (I check this site almost daily), but having kids use the F-word and flip off the camera wouldn’t be good for ANYONE. THAT was the mistake.

        Sure heterosexuals use it all the time, but they sure don’t use it in ads advocating their cause. When arguing with people, I’ve been told that my bad language just distances them from the point of what I’m saying. And while we don’t have to show how “decent” we are, it does help to show people that we’re just like them. Unfortunately, this video hinders that interpretation. Not just for the anti-gay folks, but for the open-minded as well. This could be interpreted as disgusting by anyone from any walk of life.

        I think that, if they didn’t have kids in it, I’d find it hilarious, but with the kids, it makes me uncomfortable. There are reasons kids get in trouble for swearing: it’s part of our society, free from sex, gender, whatever. Most kids would not be able to say that word without repercussions. I’m 27 years old and my mom still asks me to clean up my language. Not that I’m a baby who needs to be scolded, but It’s not attractive at all. It’s immature as far as conveying a message.

        I agree NOM and the rest of those doofuses are indecent, corrupt, delusional, pathetic and sad, but this video can anger anyone. Even if NOM’s use of this video wasn’t here, I’d still find the video awful. I think a lot of people are getting more defensive because NOM brought it up and aren’t focusing on what is actually in the video. Hate is bad, but stating it the way the video did IS counterproductive.

        • 81. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:53 am

          I appreciate everything you have said here today JoeRH, however, agree to disagree on most points, examples:

          “but having kids use the F-word and flip off the camera wouldn’t be good for ANYONE. THAT was the mistake”
          Evidently the parents didn’t find it wrong and it touched me(in a good way)…..though I wonder if my baby sister would faint….

          “This could be interpreted as disgusting by anyone from any walk of life.”
          I don’t find it disgusting….and if you read all the comments from original post other do not find it bad either….also the NOM rebuttal video only had a handful of “likes” on youtube…with over 1000 who disagree with NOMs rebuttal

        • 82. fiona64  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:28 pm

          JoeRH wrote: This could be interpreted as disgusting by anyone from any walk of life.

          Anything *could* be interpreted as anything by anyone from any walk of life.

          I understand the point you are making, but I take exception to the idea that the entire world is one big behemoth with the exact same opinion about a given matter.


        • 83. JonT  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:11 pm

          This could be interpreted as disgusting by anyone from any walk of life.

          The fact that I’m gay can ‘be interpreted as disgusting by anyone from any walk of life’.

          And it sometimes is.

          So fucking what?

          I get it. You don’t like the word ‘fuck’, particularly when used by children. Can we move on now?

    • 84. Phillip R  |  January 6, 2011 at 10:53 am

      I agree wholeheartedly. I thought the creation of the video was a bad move. We can’t criticize NOM for exploiting children and turn around and do the same.

      It may just be a word, but words carry meanings/interpretations/emotions (like fag for example) and it just felt like it was there for shock value….not for progress.

      • 85. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:05 am

        Phillip R you are right on the money. We do criticize their side for using children who probably don’t even know what message they’re actually sending, so we are being hypocrites when we defend our use of them. And to give them one of the worst swear words to throw around makes it that much more awful.

        • 86. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:07 pm

          I congratulate the parents and children for overcoming a socialized stigma associated with “what’s proper”. I find the FCKH8 campagin brilliant in all ways.

          btw -having 4 children of my own, have 3 who would never DREAM of using the F-word and 1 would uses it only around me which I celebrate that she trusts me to express how she chooses.

          I took a poll and my four kids, youngest age 10, unanimously agree kids “swear a lot!” just not always around grownups. This uproar about a word reminds how self-righteous Christians pretend for centuries that people don’t have sex….somehow the world population continued to grow…

          • 87. Phillip R  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:17 pm

            That’s great for your household but that’s not necessarily the norm across the country.

            Just don’t see using something like this which would so obviously be used against us having any positive effect in the long run. I don’t have an issue with the word itself. I cuss like a sailor. However, like anything else…there’s a time and a place.

          • 88. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:22 pm

            behind closed doors only? I’m for “keeping it real” and so very grateful I left church where hypocrisy rules.

            p.s. I almost never “cuss” but I’m so grateful I “got over myself” and no longer prudish about it.

          • 89. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:25 pm

            btw – NOM uses the fact we even have children against us.

          • 90. Phillip R  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:33 pm

            I’m not a prude at all. It’s got nothing to do with that.

            I believe that it’s easy to find other words and phrases to express the same opinion without causing such an emotional reaction. My issue isn’t with the word itself. My issue is with the poor judgment of releasing a video like this when we are trying to win people over.

          • 91. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:48 pm

            So what you’re congratulating them on is letting their kids swear? It certainly isn’t about the gay-related aspect of it. It does nothing to help the cause. So what if kids “swear a lot?” Does that make it better? Does that mean, as adults, we should encourage it?

            Honestly, I think all the defensiveness here isn’t about taking note of what’s in the video, but rather that an anti-gay organization is using this (so called) pro-gay video as a weapon against us. It’s not about content, but rather about who’s doing what with it.

          • 92. JonT  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:19 pm

            Honestly, I think all the defensiveness here isn’t about taking note of what’s in the video, but rather that an anti-gay organization is using this (so called) pro-gay video as a weapon against us. It’s not about content, but rather about who’s doing what with it.

            Actually for me the video is irrelevant. If they could not use this video to attack us, they’d simply find something else. Or, just make something up.

            To proceed under the threat that NOM might use something we say against us is a losing proposition. Just assume that no matter what we do, it will be used against us. And if we don’t provide them with ammunition, then they will just make some up. Lying is not a problem for them.

            Stop giving a shit what NOM *might* do or think.

            And frankly, all this hand wringing about a stupid expletive, is just… amazing to me.

            Just my opinion of course.

    • 93. Up&Adam  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:03 am

      Couldn’t agree with you more, JoeRH. With all the creative talents in our community, that this was even considered is beyond my comprehension. I knew as soon as Maggie and Brian discovered it they would use it against us & rightly so, it’s vile and disgusting.

  • 94. anonygrl  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:34 am

    Well, I just made my little donation to the Courage Campaign. Please be sure to let Brian Brown know.


    • 95. Lesbians Love Boies  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:46 am

      Rock on anonygrl!

      I am off to donate to CC too – thanks BB!

      • 96. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:59 am

        Good reminder and examples anon & LLB….I’ll mark on my calendar next payday! So very glad for opportunity to contribute to CC!

        • 97. adambink  |  January 6, 2011 at 10:48 am

          Rock on to all three of you.

  • […] This post was mentioned on Twitter by rickjacobs. rickjacobs said: RT @adamjbink In latest e-mail, @NOMTweets quotes me and selectively, of course #LGBT […]

  • 99. Rich  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:49 am

    Ed: Join the crowd. I’ve been officially blocked since before the holidays. I wanted to share my family’s experience prior to the holidays. It was all about my partner and I and our love for each other, 3 grown sons and their wives (first grandchild due in April) and all the fun, joy and love we share with them. You get it, all the traditional and wonderful family activities that happen during the season of joy. Alas, this family is not what NOM wants to celebrate. So, the season of joy was revealed as a season of hate at NOM because the entries that did get posted were mostly time-worn bigotry and arrogance. I made my contribution to the Courage Campaign in the belief that those attitudes will die out and the love and joy of every kind of family will flow in to fill the void. Happy New Year everyone!

    • 100. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 10:00 am

      Lovely post Rich : D

  • 101. Sagesse  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:55 am

    Subscribing from work. Will comment later. I would have to hunt for it, but I posted at the time about the conversation this generated with my 25 year old son about ‘norms’ for the kind of language kids are actually exposed to, and use (regardless of what their parents think or know about) circa 2010/11.

  • 102. Lesbians Love Boies  |  January 6, 2011 at 10:07 am

    They seem to gather an awful lot of added information in their request to sign petition. I wonder who they share that info with?

    • 103. anonygrl  |  January 6, 2011 at 10:23 am

      AND you cannot re-write the letter… you can SEND their letter, but can’t add your own thoughts.

      I am betting they discovered the last time they tried one of these, most of the respondents were US, and we re-wrote the text in opposition to them. Just a guess, but… :)

      • 104. AndrewPDX  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:33 am

        *raises hand* guilty as charged :D
        I loved the idea of using their tools against them… Oh well, there goes that guilty pleasure.

        Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

        • 105. nightshayde  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:52 pm

          I’m guessing you can still cut & paste — and send your amended letter to whatever e-mail address shows up on the page (or google to find the appropriate e-mail address).

          That’s one of my guilty pleasures, too, by the way. *giggle*

    • 106. AndrewPDX  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:57 am

      Well, they certainly don’t share their data with campaign finance laws, that’s for sure.

      Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

      • 107. Elizabeth Oakes  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:19 pm

        Meee-OOW Andrew! Don’t forget to tip your moderator, thank you and good night!!!

        • 108. Elizabeth Oakes  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:20 pm

          :) and thanks for the laugh. The moderator will give you your tip.

  • 109. Ronnie  |  January 6, 2011 at 10:11 am

    Congratulations to Neil Patrick Harris for winning the 2011 People Choice Award for Favorite TV Comedy Actor…..The smile on David Burtka’s face when NPH thanks him & the smile on NPH’s face when he gives a shout out to their twins, Gideon & Harper, is priceless…..<3…Ronnie

  • 110. Ronnie  |  January 6, 2011 at 10:23 am


    “I’ve put this off long enough. I haven’t been fair to my family, my friends or my co-workers. And I certainly haven’t been fair to myself: For too many years I’ve been on the sidelines of Boston’s gay community but not in the game — figuratively and literally, as I feel I would have had a pretty good career in the (gay) Beantown Softball League.

    Over the past couple of months I have discussed the coming-out process with my family and a few friends, and have had sit-downs with Herald editor-in-chief Joe Sciacca and sports editor Hank Hryniewicz, as well as with WEEI’s Glenn Ordway. They’ve been great, as have my friends and family.

    But during this same period, I have read sobering stories about people who came undone, killing themselves after being outed. These tragic events helped guide me to the belief that if more people are able to be honest about who they are, ultimately fewer people will feel such devastating pressure.

    It’s my hope that from now on I’ll be more involved. I’m not really sure what I mean by being “involved,” but this is a start: I’m gay.”

    Here is the article written by Steve Buckly for the Boston Herald, titled “Welcome to my coming out party”:

    Congratulations Steven Buckley….<3…Ronnie

    • 111. Ronnie  |  January 6, 2011 at 10:25 am

      woah…I misspelled his name twice…..apologies….Congratulations Steve Buckley….. <3…Ronnie

    • 112. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 10:25 am

      Woot! Sign him up for Ellen! Hope the athletic world will continue to come out of the closet!

    • 113. Carpool Cookie  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:11 pm


      I am (re)reading Making History: The Struggle for Gay & Lesbian Equal Rights, which interviews tons of activists (some straight) from all differet eras.

      I was struck by something said by ex-nun Jean O’Leary, which echos throughout the book and didn’t originate with Harvey Milk. “We did a lot of strategizing both for passing of gay civil rights bills and for the repeal of sodomy statutes. We also did lots of community organizing, always emphasizing visibility because this was – and is – at the core of our oppression. There’s no question about it: If everybody who’s gay was visible, we would probably eliminate 70 percent of the oppression. Everybody already knows gay people. They just don’t know that they’re gay.”

      What if instead of commissioning a harsh new edition of the Bible and writing gay lynching acts, King James I told his people, “I sleep with men. I told one of (my numerous) Gentlemen of the Bedchamber I loved him as a wife and did not want to live without him. And I am your sovereign, annointed by God, and your fellow countreyman.”

      I am thrilled that Mr. Buckley has found freedom, and excited for his future, and the kids growing up reading him who will see that life is diverse.

      • 114. Carpool Cookie  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:16 pm

        Ooops. O’Leary’s quote correctly ends, “They just don’t know that we’re gay.” (italics added.)

        Hope correction isn’t anticlimactic.


      • 115. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 7, 2011 at 7:39 am

        “There’s no question about it: If everybody who’s gay was visible, we would probably eliminate 70 percent of the oppression. Everybody already knows gay people. They just don’t know that we’re gay.”

        !!!! X infinity!

  • 116. James Sweet  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:10 am

    Every time you say “fuck”, a puppy drowns.


    • 117. Elizabeth Oakes  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:33 am

      To quote (loosely) Charles Cooper: “The institution is the word. The word is the institution. If you change the word, you change the institution.”

      So, if you let just anyone say “F***” that changes the institution. If we let NOM say it, they’ll turn it into something dirty and unenjoyable (straight/missionary/marriage&reproduction only, I should think.)

      So good thing they don’t want to say it, huh??? Because that would change it for EVERYBODY. Sign the “Don’t Let NOM Say ‘F***'” petition NOW.

      • 118. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:41 am

        NOM would never use that word in anything that the public would see. They like to tout around their religion and I’m sure swearing isn’t part of their values.

        • 119. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:15 pm

          Give me a break….come on Joe…you really think NOM or other “religious” persons don’t swear? Just one example. I congratulate this priest for “getting in the spirit of the moment”

          • 120. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:50 pm

            Did I say they didn’t swear? No. I said they wouldn’t swear where the public could hear it. There’s a difference. A big one. And this video of the priest does not support any of your arguments. This is an odd situation with someone actually physically attacking him. Did you see the part where the guy smacked the priest?

          • 121. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:05 pm

            fair enough : ) Perhaps I could use a more credible example…this is just one that came to mind. I did like how the Priest used the “attacker’s” own language…out of respect? hmmmmmm….

            There is a famous Apostle in the Mormon Church, J. Golden Kimball who was infamous for saying “inappropriate” words over the pulpit. He also became one of the most beloved apostles too.

        • 122. Elizabeth Oakes  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:01 pm

          Ah, I see. JoeRH doesn’t understand our sense of humor around here. I’m actually well aware that NOM doesn’t say F*** in public, believe it or not. I am pointing out their hypocrisy about what the use of certain language means.

          Perhaps you are not aware of Charles Cooper’s improvised argument during the Ninth Circuit appeal about “the word is the institution,” which made clear how weak the Proponents’ case really is. I was riffing on that. You can read the transcript if you’d like to understand the reference better.

          • 123. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:07 pm


          • 124. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:31 pm

            Ah, I see. Elizabeth Oakes would rather patronize me than reply to my message. Sense of humor around here? Good. Considering this video to the public to just be a part of one’s sense of humor? Bad.

            Also, talking about NOM’s use of the word marriage is, once again, FAR from the F-word. I guess we should start calling them c**ts since one could interpret it as funny. We could use “the word marriage” argument to justify our liberal use of the word c**t…

          • 125. fiona64  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:33 pm

            JoeRH, why don’t you just quite while you’re so far behind?

            Gad. It’s not often that I want to bitch-slap one of our own, but you’re about to be part of an elite company of two.

          • 126. Elizabeth Oakes  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:39 pm

            I did reply to your message, dearheart. I’m sorry you’re having a bad day and that you aren’t having good time around here. We are now all WELL informed about your opinions on the video, and uh….you don’t like it, is that it? Abundantly clear.

            As for the use of children in the video, I happen to agree it might have been unwise. Happy now? Or perhaps you’d like to throw the c-word in my face again?

            (I also happen to believe it will have minimal impact, but will wait to see before I draw a conclusion on the matter.)

          • 127. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:43 pm

            @ Fiona – I’m not concerned about how you people raise your children or how liberal you are with letting them swear. This video, whether you like it or not, is inappropriate and does nothing to benefit anything other than making people who don’t find kids swearing offensive, laugh.

            I’m not far behind. I’m just in the minority of people who see this video for what it really is: stupid. I wouldn’t consider myself one of you anyway, so you can exclude me from your group all you want. There are people who want progress, and there are people who like to do immature things for fun, but get nowhere. This video falls into the latter.

            PS – What’s Gad? Is that supposed to be in place of God? Is it offensive to say God now?

          • 128. fiona64  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:47 pm

            Oooh. We’ve now devolved to “you people” and used “liberal” as a pejorative.

            Troll alert …

            Do I really need to explain “gad” as a diminutive of “Egad,” which is a Tudor-era contraction of “ye gods”?

            I guess I do. What a sad state education has reached when a 27-year-old man is not even aware of the evolution of language.

          • 129. fiona64  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:49 pm

            JoeRH says: “This video, whether you like it or not, is inappropriate.”

            No, pooky. This video, whether YOU like it or not, was made with the full awareness and consent of the parents of the children therein. Propriety is in the eye of the beholder and, whether YOU like it or not, it is not up to you to decide how other people parent their children, what they allow them to say, etc.

            If you need some smelling salts to go with your fainting couch, I’m sure we can supply them on your way out the door.

          • 130. Phillip R  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:55 pm

            I’ll admit that it took me a second to link gad to egads. It’s just not a word you hear very often. I thought you typo’ed God.

            Also, not everyone is a journalist or writer like you Fiona who obviously has quite a firm grasp on language. I can’t say the evolution of language was ever taught in my high school or college. Then again, I was a Bio major so most of my time was spent in labs.

          • 131. fiona64  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:58 pm


            I suppose I am guilty of making certain assumptions. FWIW, evolution of language was taught to me in the sixth grade, at a public school. We had weekly orthography lessons, which I devoured. I have continued the study on my own ever since.


          • 132. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:02 pm

            Oh Fiona. I agree with wanting to bitch-slap someone, but it’s not for the same reasons.

            I say “you people” because there are those of you who don’t care what words your kids use and find this video completely benign, and then there are those like me who are completely shocked to hear that parents advocate kids swearing. The use of the word “liberal” is literal, not referring to someone who considers themselves A liberal.

            “Do I really need to explain “gad” as a diminutive of “Egad,” which is a Tudor-era contraction of “ye gods”?”

            When would I need to learn this? Advanced English? I doubt I’m in the minority of unfamiliarity with this term. If this was supposed to be taught to me, then complain to my school district for preventing me from learning this oh so important term… Once again, giving me the urge to bitch-slap you.

            I guess when it comes to the appropriateness of language, I just take into account the way society treats swearing and especially with children. I guess TV, schools and most parents just aren’t hip enough to let their kids swear, but if I ever have kids, I sure as hell won’t tolerate that language. And I definitely wouldn’t let them hang out in a household that approves of that kind of language.

          • 133. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:03 pm

            Thank you Phillip. This woman needs to get a clue (that’s my words, not speaking for you).

          • 134. Phillip R  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:07 pm

            Ahhh….I didn’t have anything like that myself and I was also in public school (and Honors classes at that). We mainly read various classics and debated about interpretations, personal thoughts, etc. I also had the same English teacher through most of my 6-10th grade years and she was a voracious reader so that probably shaped her lesson plans.

          • 135. Elizabeth Oakes  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:07 pm

            NBC’s latest episode of “S*** My Troll Says.”

          • 136. fiona64  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:08 pm

            JoeRH wrote: if I ever have kids, I sure as hell won’t tolerate that language. And I definitely wouldn’t let them hang out in a household that approves of that kind of language.

            I’m sure we can all live with the theoretical pain of not having your children around us. And if you think that forbidding your kids to cuss will stop them, all I can do is laugh at you.

            I have far more of a clue than you do, sugarplum. It comes with having been on the planet almost twice as long as you have and understanding that things are not nearly as black-and-white as you would like them to be.

            You remind me of my favorite Oscar Wilde quote: “I am no longer young enough to know everything.”

            Buh-bye now.

          • 137. Phillip R  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:08 pm

            Hey, I’m not getting into this between you 2. I see both of your points and while I lean towards the same viewpoints as Joe…I kinda think it’s moving out of respectful debate.

          • 138. Chris in Lathrop  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:20 pm

            Hear, hear, Fiona64! This video is only inappropriate for those who find the use of the word ‘fuck’ offensive.

            The FCKH8 video is not calling people names (inappropriate). They are drawing attention to a cause (appropriate).

            Brian the Bigot Brown is trying to turn this into a wedge issue, and those of us like JoeRH, troll or no, are falling for it. The video is not about kids swearing, it’s a vehicle to revile the hatred behind the anti-equality movement. And obviously, since they’ve raised over $200,000 for the fight, there are people out there responding positively.

            Seriously? What’s exploitative about letting kids stand up for equality?

          • 139. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:21 pm

            @Elizabeth – So the “C” word IS offensive, but the “F” word isn’t? Is it because you’re a woman? Honestly curious.

          • 140. fiona64  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:24 pm

            I believe that Elizabeth made it very plain that you calling her the c-word would have little to no impact on her, JoeRH.

            But your misogyny (“Is that because you’re a woman?”) is noted.

          • 141. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:25 pm

            Chris, don’t jump on the “dumb wagon.” This has nothing to do with Brian Brown and his feelings about gay stuff. This is about LANGUAGE! Brian has NOTHING to do with my opinion on this. I have to say that I’m seriously disturbed by how many people here think that this is all about advocating for equality, but ignoring the way the message is delivered. You guys assume I’m a homophobe or something because this video disgusts me. It has nothing to do with the subject-matter, it’s about the delivery. Why you don’t understand this is just… weird.

          • 142. Phillip R  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:28 pm

            I don’t think it’s an issue of letting children stand up for equality for me personally. I disagree with the video because it resorts to using language that many people would find offensive (regardless of whether we personally do or not…it’s obvious that Fuck has a negative connotation) to represent the cause of an entire group of people in a public venue. It’s a PR nightmare. I agree with the message but not the avenue that was used to express it.

          • 143. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:30 pm

            @Fiona – Did I call Elizabeth a c**t? No. Am I a misogynist because I’m curious if she finds the word offensive because she’s a woman (because pretty much all the women I know find it offensive)? No. Stop trying to define me when all you have is your patronizing jabs.

          • 144. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:33 pm

            Also Fiona, in response to an earlier comment you made, I NEVER expected my choice to deny my kids the right to swear would prevent them from doing so. If it happens when I’m not around, I know there’s nothing I can do about it. But I will raise my kids to know that using swear words isn’t a decent way to talk.

            PS – And stop calling me food names. It just makes your condescension even more revolting.

          • 145. fiona64  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:34 pm

            @JoeRH: Oh, sweetie. I have far more than my “patronizing jabs.” If you’re content to define a woman by an Anglo-Saxon term for her privates, knock yourself out. You have no power here.

            (And I think *that* is what ticks you off more than anything else; you don’t have the power to decide for anyone other than yourself … and you don’t like that. Plus, I have the audacity to be a woman who is getting uppity with you, and we can’t have that, now can we?)

          • 146. fiona64  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:35 pm

            Oh, Joe. Did you really have the audacity to tell me how I was allowed to express myself? Thus proving my point that your real issue is that you can’t control what other people do?

            Pardon me while I laugh at you. Some more.

          • 147. Chris in Lathrop  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:48 pm

            JoeRH: So the video uses controversial language. So what? Anybody who would use that as their “reasoning” not to support marriage equality was looking for an excuse to begin with. It’s not like is the only spokes-website for marriage equality, right? Just one more player on the field. One that’s raised over $200K for the fight.

            What this has to do with BS Brown is that he’s trying to dictate the terms of how this battle for equality is fought. I understand your discomfort with the videos doesn’t come from the man or his hate machine, and if the delivery disgusts you, well you have every right to that, too. I don’t see the FCKH8 videos as counterproductive, rather it’s the quibbling over things like the delivery. That’s what Brian wants.

          • 148. fiona64  |  January 6, 2011 at 3:16 pm

            There are, no doubt, some people who find my commentary here ironic. I’m usually the one to point out that civility is the way to reach the movable middle. However … I do not think that someone’s choice of language makes them “unintelligent” or that it’s my place to comment on how people I don’t even know permit their children to express themselves. If some parent out there is okay with their kid cussing up a storm in general, I am not going to faint dead away. If some parent is okay with their child cussing up a storm to make a point about the importance of equality, the same thing applies. And, as we all know, taking away the taboo of something also takes away its attraction to little kids. They’re not nearly as fascinated by things that provoke no reaction in the people around them as they are in the things that make adults clutch their pearls in horror.

            I am far more concerned with those parents who let their children do unsafe things (like running around in restaurants where waitstaff are carrying heavy trays full of hot food) or who expect bystanders to watch their children for them “because I just turned my back for a second.”

          • 149. Chris in Lathrop  |  January 6, 2011 at 3:38 pm

            @FIona64: I haven’t seen (probably for lack of keeping up with enough P8TT) where you’ve talked about the movable middle, but I agree we ought to be civil in as many situations as we can. But, there is a time and place for everything, non?

            I went back and watched the original FKH8 video again, and the only thing I found uncivil in it was right at the beginning where the lady called people who had a problem with her gay son’s marriage, “fuckwads,” and even then I’m not so sure it’s uncivilized. That’s my opinion on it, anyways.

        • 150. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:28 pm

          PS Elizabeth – I love how someone with a passionate disagreement is automatically a troll. I’m not on here to get kicks off of pissing people off, I’ve been sharing my opinion, but you all keep getting so defensive. It’s like Rosie O’Donnell and everything that appears to be anti-gay automatically deserves the label “hater.”

          • 151. fiona64  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:32 pm

            Hmm. Do “passionate disagreements” always include telling people that they are unintelligent if they are not offended by other peoples’ linguistic choices and are clearly not in professional environments if cursing is not frowned upon? (I’m paraphrasing your comments for brevity’s sake.) And saying that your particular ideas about what constitutes propriety apply to all of society, despite clear evidence to the contrary?

            Thanks ever so much for that clarification. Somehow, I always thought that being called stupid and unprofessional were insults, as opposed to “passionate disagreements.” I’m so glad we have you hear to set us straight.

            The minute you used “you people” in reference to people who do not parent the same way you would parent your theoretical children (I’m childfree, BTW, and could not give a smaller damn whether or not you breed) and used liberal as a pejorative, you revealed yourself to be just what you are.

          • 152. JoeRH  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:40 pm

            Did I say you were unintelligent, or that one could come off as being unintelligent when resorting to swear words to further a point? I swear plenty in my life, but there are times where it is so not appropriate.

            Clear evidence to the contrary.. you mean on this board? This board doesn’t give a good representation of who finds swearing no big deal.

            I’m sorry. “You people” was just short for “Those of you who approve of your children swearing.” Didn’t realize you’d take it so far the wrong way.

            If I say someone shouldn’t use such and such liberally, that automatically makes me against liberals in the political sense?

            Dear (trying out a condescending tone), I believe you’ve revealed yourself to be exactly what you are: an overdefensive person with a “victim-mentality” who believes everyone who disagrees with them is a villain.

            I’m leaving this thread now. Not because I’m in the minority and not because I’m frustrated, but because I have to leave my computer for the time being. Have fun beating me up while I’m gone (seems like something you’d enjoy).

          • 153. fiona64  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:44 pm

            JoeRH: I’m leaving this thread now.

            Ah, the good old “pail and shovel” post.

            Don’t let the door hit you …

            As for “victim mentality,” I’m not the one whining about how people express themselves …

          • 154. Chris in Lathrop  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:59 pm

            JoeRH: How ’bout you scroll back up to your 2:25pm comments.

            And I quote: “Chris, don’t jump on the “dumb wagon.”

            Indirect as it may be, you have still called Fiona64, Elizabeth Oakes, and just about everyone you’ve been having “passionate disagreements” with unintelligent. Your insincerity’s showing.

          • 155. Elizabeth Oakes  |  January 7, 2011 at 3:34 pm

            I guess JoeRH has left, or not, doesn’t matter, but in closing:

            First off, Joe decided to get allergic about a comment that wasn’t directed at him, was not in reference to what he was saying, and was snippy at me from the get-go. I tried to respond politely for as long as I could, but as you can see that was to no avail.

            It was impossible to point out that, far from disagreeing with him, my comments had NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM. Then, with no knowledge of my work, he attacked the fact that I build rapport with some of my clients by mirroring their use of bad words–I am a minister, and the clients I’m referring to are often indigent, angry, or dying, so yeah, they curse sometimes when relating their stories to me. They usually appreciate knowing I don’t have a judgmental or puritanical attitude about it.

            However, final thought on the matter: Joe questions how effective it is to convey an equality message by showing children using profanity, because it is offensive to some. I question how effective it is to defend that particular point by being insulting, rude, and offensive to the people on this board. Tends to undermine the point about taking offense, IMHO.

            Joe, if you inadvertently took offense I apologize. However, my initial comments were not directed at you at all. I will proffer peace if you will accept it.

          • 156. JoeRH  |  January 10, 2011 at 4:46 pm

            Elizabeth, I did leave. And I’m only posting now to say that your last post was hilarious. You can really analyze someone…

            This is one of my favorite parts: “I question how effective it is to defend that particular point by being insulting, rude, and offensive to the people on this board.” Um, was I the only one who saw that freak Fiona’s messages? Or it doesn’t count if I’M the recipient of the insults? Don’ t act like I’m the only one who restorted to those tactics.

            This is my most favorite part: “Joe, if you inadvertently took offense I apologize. However, my initial comments were not directed at you at all. I will proffer peace if you will accept it.” This proves what I gathered by the end of our arguments: you are a nut. Inavdvertently offended me? Short-term memory loss? Proffer peace? After I left the comments?? It’s like you’re trying to prove to everyone here that you did absolutely nothing wrong and it’s all my immaturity and lack of comprehension. Disappointing behavior from a minister…

        • 157. Rhie  |  January 6, 2011 at 7:21 pm

          Interesting you should bring up TV as not allowing swearing. I wonder the last time you watched prime time TV. I’ve heard d***, bulls***, h***, a**. Before 10p at night too. Also, a circuit court just ruled that the FCC has no constitutional basis for ANY censorship of words. Clearly, society is changing.

          • 158. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 7, 2011 at 7:45 am

            true indeed…not to mention many have cable TV….HBO anyone?

          • 159. fiona64  |  January 7, 2011 at 8:38 am

            Yep. And yet the word “penis” was censored on our local affiliate the other day.


          • 160. Chris in Lathrop  |  January 7, 2011 at 9:56 am

            Profanity is profanity simply because people *think* it’s profanity. It’s the use of the word that actually matters. Reasonable people don’t take Westboro Baptist as speaking for all of Christianity, either. I think whole mountain ranges are being made of molehills here.

  • 161. Bear in the Woods  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:57 am

    It’s just a stupid word for heaven’s sake! The point of the video is to show ANGER and RESOLVE to stop letting the H8ers dictate how we live our lives. That’s at least how I see it.
    Don’t like the word than by all means don’t use it, but don’t you dare tell me or anyone else what I can and can not say or feel!
    FUCK NOM!!!

    • 162. Phillip R  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:14 pm

      I don’t think anyone is saying you can or can’t say it. What I’m saying is that to release a controversial video like this is a double-edged sword. It may increase the energy level of current supporters but I’m not sure it’s worth it at the cost of losing those fence-sitters. I’m of the view that we should rise about antics like this. If anything, it angers me that as a homosexual, I could be viewed as supportive of something like this when the typical Joe-schmo sees it.

      • 163. Carpool Cookie  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:38 pm

        “to release a controversial video like this is a double-edged sword. It may increase the energy level of current supporters but I’m not sure it’s worth it at the cost of losing those fence-sitters.”

        But the world is not made up of a completely united front of people, and never will be…unless we’re attacked by aliens some day. (And even then there will be some crazies on the aliens’ side.)

        Some group out there made a video some people liked, some people disliked, and that most have never seen and never will see. Big deal. It’s not like they skinned animals alive on camera.

        I’m so confused when people imply “the gay community” or “[a] movement” (and I don’t mean you, Phillip), as if it were all some neat, unified, inhuman experience. That is not the nature of change. Or life, really. Sometimes there’s order, sometimes there isn’t.

        Them’s the breaks.

        • 164. Carpool Cookie  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:42 pm

          Wow. That’s a lot of bold.


        • 165. Phillip R  |  January 7, 2011 at 7:49 am

          The world may not be made up of a united front of people, however, that’s not really the point. Many of us have spent our lives trying to break the stereotypes that people have for homosexuals. When Susie Homemaker who’s never had any personal experiences with homosexuals sees something like this, it’s going to help change her views regardless. Now, the question is whether it’s going to help or harm. If it helps, then sure…the video has succeeded on some level. I’m just not quite sure that’s what the outcome will be. The message could have easily been delivered without taking the chance at convincing a fence-sitter that we are social deviants. The fact that people can’t even type the word Fuck here on this site and are using F-word and F-bomb further shows that it has an emotional impact for people. I just don’t think it was worth it.

          Language is a beautiful way to express yourself but words DO have power and it comes with the responsibility of realizing when and how to use that power. If Susie Homemaker who lives next door to me is offended by something like this (and yes…I would think a number of people would find children using this language inappropriate regardless of the message) then it shapes how she views me as a result.

          • 166. fiona64  |  January 7, 2011 at 8:37 am

            When I type “f-word” or “f-bomb” here, I promise you it is because of the delicate sensibilities of some present, and not because I have any fear of using the word “fuck.”

          • 167. Phillip R  |  January 7, 2011 at 8:42 am

            @fiona Which only proves the point.

          • 168. fiona64  |  January 7, 2011 at 2:03 pm

            The only thing it proves, Philip, is that there are a lot of pearl-clutchers here whose virgin eyes I try to avoid assaulting.

          • 169. Phillip R  |  January 7, 2011 at 2:20 pm

            No…it proves my point exactly. You change your choice of words out of respect for other people’s viewpoints on them. Whether you agree with their sensibilities or not, you still modify your own behavior because you don’t want to cause the emotional impact that the word carries for them.

          • 170. fiona64  |  January 7, 2011 at 3:24 pm

            And that is *my* behavior, Phillip. I don’t go around telling other people what linguistic choices they should make — or how they should rear their children.

            My main reason for any self-censorship that I do here has to do with the terms of service for this site. This is NOT a public square, but a place where we post with permission and are only granted the privilege so long as we follow the TOS. I could be banned at any time (and people have been).

            Your point is not at all proven when you insist on what *other* people should do to protect your sensibilities. My choices are my own, and no one else’s. Someone else? May make a different choice, and more power to them.

          • 171. Phillip R  |  January 7, 2011 at 3:56 pm

            I didn’t say anything about how people should rear their children. If people want to raise their children to be little hellions, then by all means…it’s your life. Doesn’t mean that anyone wants to be around their kids. Do I personally think it prepares them for the realities of the world? No. Should those kids walk around school saying Fuck hate because their parents allow them to? When that student gets pissed off at their teacher and says Fuck off….well they are just using words and since their parents think it’s okay…that’s fine? Without clear concise guidelines on WHEN something like that is appropriate, your child doesn’t know the emotional affect that the word can have on a number of people.

            You may not want to concede my point (although I really do feel like I’ve made it clearly and concisely) and as I’ve said previously…I could care less about the use of the word in general. I don’t have these ‘pearl-clutching’ sensibilities that you seem driven to point out. That’s not the point. I’m not saying what you should do…I’m saying what you yourself said. You modify your language to protect the the virgin eyes blah blah blah. This TOS stuff is the first you’ve mentioned of it and just sounds like a last ditch attempt to negate my argument.

            I’m not insisting on what other people should do at all. However, when what other people do directly affects my life, I absolutely have every right to stand up and let my voice be heard.

          • 172. fiona64  |  January 7, 2011 at 4:01 pm

            Think whatever you want to, Philip. I could not possibly care less.

            I disagree with you and that is not going to change.

            Cursing at a teacher? What are the rules at the school? Just as the TOS that you think is a “last ditch argument” on my part is a fact of life, so are the rules at the school. The school rules are the TOS for that non-public-square environment.

            When no one is going to be physically harmed by something (and please, do tell me when the last time was that anyone was physically harmed by a word), I don’t really care what they do.

          • 173. Phillip R  |  January 7, 2011 at 4:06 pm

            So, a word is just a word as long as it doesn’t physically hurt someone….that’s your final argument?

            Tell that to someone who is mentally or emotionally abused and see what they say.

            It’s obvious that you have no interest in actually trying to see things from my perspective….which is your pjerogative (yes yes…I massacred that one). *shrug* Such is life.

          • 174. fiona64  |  January 9, 2011 at 6:57 pm


            I’m a survivor of domestic violence.

            I am also a supporter of freedom of speech.

            Go fuck yourself.

        • 175. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 7, 2011 at 8:15 am

          “…and that most have never seen and never will see” !!!

          I typed a long response but deleted it as I find CC described the human experience well “sometime there is order, sometimes there isn’t” !!!!

          • 176. Phillip R  |  January 7, 2011 at 8:24 am

            I don’t really think that’s a good enough excuse to warrant the language.

          • 177. Carpool Cookie  |  January 7, 2011 at 1:17 pm

            So even though the vast majority of people will never hear the words….don’t use them??

          • 178. Phillip R  |  January 7, 2011 at 1:56 pm

            I’m sure NOM wants as many people as possible to see their version of the video. While it may be twisted, the video in question provides more than enough ammo for them.

            I’m rather surprised that people don’t see more of an issue with 1. using children to express a political message and 2. allowing children to express it in such a way.

            I’d feel quite different if the video was only adults.

          • 179. fiona64  |  January 7, 2011 at 2:02 pm

            And, again, every single one of those kids is there with the permission of their parents.

          • 180. Phillip R  |  January 7, 2011 at 2:15 pm

            And again…that has nothing to do with whether it’s a social norm to allow children to express themselves in such a manner.

            Some parents allow their children to run amok causing general havoc in public places. It doesn’t make it right and is quite disrespectful of other people.

            I assumed their parents gave them permission or they wouldn’t be in the videos…..

          • 181. Elizabeth Oakes  |  January 7, 2011 at 2:32 pm

            I think the “preaching to the choir” factor needs to be considered here. Seems to me this video was partly made with equality activists in mind, expressing their anger and intensity, and showing that their message is not lost on younger people. I don’t believe anyone thought this video would win over religionists or even the middle; it was made, at least in part, as inspiration for our own.

            Though many think “preaching to the choir” is a waste of time, the choir needs inspiration too to sing well and sincerely. That may be at least in part what this is.

            Now: was it prudent to put something out there that will be offensive to some, and used by our opposition for their own purposes? Maybe not prudent, but maybe not as damaging as some believe. As Brian and his publicity crew use even our court victories as fundraising opportunities for their side, they of course would use this as another scare tactic. My guess is it’s going to blow over fairly quickly and they’ll be onto exploiting the next sound byte or legal decision to line their pockets in a week or two.

            IIRC, the gay rights movement has ALWAYS pushed the envelope of what mainstream American considers “good taste,” from Pride parades to ACT-UP’s in-your-face activism to the “kiss-in”s outside the church buildings of marriage equality’s opposition. These are tactics in a culture war, which must be fought alongside the political war in order for any substantial social change to occur. Part of that culture war means DEFYING social norms, whether it’s men dressing up as ladies or girls kissing on television or, perhaps, children using grown-up words in a marriage equality video.

            How effective are these tactics? Do they help or harm progress? I’ll leave that question to someone writing their Ph.D thesis, but it seems to me that progress has been made, either because of, or perhaps despite, these tactics. I think we’ll still make progress despite this video too.

          • 182. Ann S.  |  January 7, 2011 at 2:35 pm

            Well put, Elizabeth!

          • 183. Phillip R  |  January 7, 2011 at 2:39 pm

            You bring up some good points. Change has a way of happening regardless of how many people have to be dragged (drug? drugged? I should have paid more attention in English class, Fiona. heh) kicking and screaming. Like Cookie said, it really is just a philosophical argument and you are right…NOM will move on to their next scare tactic in no time.

            I love a good debate so thanks for keeping things respectful.

          • 184. fiona64  |  January 7, 2011 at 3:25 pm

            You were correct with “dragged.” :-P

          • 185. Elizabeth Oakes  |  January 7, 2011 at 3:42 pm

            I like “druggened” but we do a lot of creative wordsmithery around here. “)

            Thanks for the grammar point fiona/thanks for your respectful response, Phillip.

            PS I was president of my junior high debate club, lol.

        • 186. Lesbians Love Boies  |  January 7, 2011 at 8:46 am

          I might end up siding with the aliens in the event they invade!

          Most of you know I have a strong dislike for swearing. But that is only about me and people are free to swear if they want. And it does get the point across that they are mighty angry at HATE.

          The video doesn’t bother me.

          What bothers me even more is the outright lies and tangled misinformation the Anti-Gay groups say about homosexuality as Truth. **I** know the truth about being a homosexual as I have lived it every day of my life. It doesn’t define me or my morals – it’s just who I am. I cannot change it, I cannot deny it, I cannot ignore it. It’s the same as being a heterosexual – you cannot change that part of your being – it’s just there.


          • 187. Carpool Cookie  |  January 7, 2011 at 12:49 pm


            Exactly. Maybe seeing the video (which your average Susie Homemaker will NOT, anyway) would open a dialogue as to WHY that group of people is angry enough to swear.

            The answer is, they are raging against the dying of the light.

            – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

            Do not go gentle into that good night
            by Dylan Thomas

            Do not go gentle into that good night,
            Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
            Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

            Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
            Because their words had forked no lightning they
            Do not go gentle into that good night.

            Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
            Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
            Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

            Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
            And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
            Do not go gentle into that good night.

            Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
            Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
            Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

            And you, my father, there on the sad height,
            Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
            Do not go gentle into that good night.
            Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

            – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

            Hear the poet read it here:

          • 188. Carpool Cookie  |  January 7, 2011 at 12:51 pm

            Oops! I was meaning to quote LLB”s “Most of you know I have a strong dislike for swearing. But that is only about me and people are free to swear if they want. And it does get the point across that they are mighty angry at HATE at the top, there.

          • 189. Phillip R  |  January 7, 2011 at 1:03 pm

            *shrug* Well, I guess I’m in the minority that sees the video as more of a liability and hindrance from a fringe group (much like the guy with the nooses sign and NOM) than helpful. Our differences make the world go round though.

          • 190. Carpool Cookie  |  January 7, 2011 at 1:27 pm

            I think it would be a problem if that was the only message out there. But it’s not. And criticizing, applauding or accepting the language is really a philosophical argument rather than one with any practical effect, because we can’t control everyone. (That’s what NOM”s trying to do, and they are FAILING.)

            GLBT people have been trying to act nice and be accepted for centuries. Don’t we have better things to do with out lives than lick conservatives’ boots ’round the clock?

            I’m glad that moving forward now takes place in the legal arena rather than one of public opinion, because you can’t make everyone happy, anyway. (And public opinion has shifted, so it’s a minority of people who don’t see gay rights as civil rights. Some cursing by a handful of people isn’t going to erase that.)

          • 191. Phillip R  |  January 7, 2011 at 1:47 pm

            *shrug* I don’t view it as licking anyone’s boots. I view it as a worthy message expressed inappropriately with possible liabilities. It’s true that you can’t please everyone and I’m not saying that we should be trying to control everyone. However, I do think we should be trying to reach out to everyone we possibly can.

            I agree that public opinion is shifting however, I wouldn’t go so far as to say that it’s shifted enough to think that the majority views it as civil rights. I think that’s a stretch. There has been great strides (and ones that honestly I never expected to see in my lifetime) but if the majority held the opinion that LGBT issues were civil rights issues than I don’t think we would be relying on the legal system to move them forward.

          • 192. Chris in Lathrop  |  January 7, 2011 at 3:08 pm

            I agree with Carpool Cookie that the profanity might be a problem if FCKH8 were the only organization with a pro-equality message. Of course, the hypothetical of only one group putting out the message would itself be a problem.

            Expecting a clean message lays down rules that obviously can’t always be lived up to. We have to be ourselves in this fight. We can’t base our acceptance and approval upon something we’re not. It’s disingenuous. I think the kids in the video are perfectly placed, because the fight affects them directly. Why should they stay out of the fight? As for the children cursing, I could see a possible problem if the video had only children, or if the children were the only ones cursing.

            Comparisons between overuse of the word fuck and a guy advocating for the hanging of LGBT persons are way off-balance. It’s comparing apples and oranges. Oh yeah, and didn’t NOM neglect to distance themselves from Noose Man and the other whack-jobs on the bus tour?

  • 193. Bob  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:00 pm

    so although the focus on one word, the video, by the looks of the comments on this thread, has achieved it’s goal by creating a CONTROVERSY and thereby involking the likes of Benford’s Law,, and all sorts of other things including reference to that word in the constitution, as well as legal implications surrounding Controversy….

    the video is a success in terms of being controversial………. and thus bringing passion to an issue….

    question how do we bring the attention back from a word to the actual issue, which is marriage equality???

    another video perhaps, marriage equality, and the f word both are controversial……

  • 194. candide001  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:03 pm

    Whoever does the media for our side needs to come up right away with a response to this smear by NOM.

    Make a video montage of the most vile of the haters spewing their most outrageous lies. Show gory footage of the faces of victims of gay-bashing–maybe even Matthew Shepard. Intersperse these with the SPLC explaining why these groups have been designated hate groups and with an underlying message: if you and your loved ones were constantly being subjected to this kind of hate and violence, you’d be swearing too.

    Something really effective needs to be done right away to counter the damage NOM will do with this. And a direct video response like this needs to be ready to run in each state where marriage equality will be in play.

    I’m in the camp that thinks FCKH8 has really hurt us with this. But it can be turned around. The voters have to be innoculated against NOM’s misuse of it.

    Remember what resulted when our side did not effectively counter the Gathering Storm imagery.

  • 195. Ed  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:08 pm

    Are we the least bit surprised…..

    • 196. Kathleen  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:24 pm

      While I’d like to think this means he’s come to peace with its repeal, I suspect “I have to do everything I can to make sure that the impact on the morale, retention, recruitment and battle effectiveness of the military is minimized as much as possible,” means he’ll do everything he can to delay the certification.

      • 197. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:28 pm

        so why wait?? Some conservatives say repeal with cause a mass exodus from military anyway….

        Breaking News Alert: U.S. Army and Marine Corps to reduce number of troops on active duty, Gates says
        January 6, 2011 2:18:22 PM

        The Pentagon will have to cut spending by $78 billion over the next five years, Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates said Thursday, forcing the Army and Marine Corps to shrink the number of troops on active duty.

        • 198. anonygrl  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:42 pm

          Which NOM will rush to assure everyone is happening BECAUSE heterosexuals are abandoning their posts and running screaming into the night for fear that someone who is homosexual might stand next to them in the lunch line.

          • 199. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:08 pm

            :::rolling eyes:::

        • 200. fiona64  |  January 7, 2011 at 3:18 pm

          They go through troop reductions like this every 5-10 years or so. They offer buy-outs to those interested in taking them. This is nothing new … but I have no doubt that the “enemy” will try to make hay from it.


          • 201. Richard A. Jernigan  |  January 7, 2011 at 8:17 pm

            Any chance we can get General Amos to take one of those buy-outs!?!? I hope so. We definitely don’t need him. Our Marines deserve a Commandant who can be as professional as they are, and Amos has proven time and again that he ain’t it!

      • 202. JonT  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:33 pm

        Yep, that’s what I read into it as well Kathleen.

        I’d love to be proven wrong however.

    • 203. Manilow  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:39 pm

      Can we please start a pool to see when McLame will finally retire?

      • 204. Sagesse  |  January 6, 2011 at 8:06 pm

        Sadly, he’s just been elected for another six year term :(. I’m sure he plans to take advantage of it.

      • 205. anonygrl  |  January 7, 2011 at 8:29 am

        Retire? Never. I think we ae going to have to send Buffy Summers out to “retire” him.

    • 206. Sagesse  |  January 6, 2011 at 7:15 pm

      McCain: ‘Don’t ask’ repeal will work

      “McCain showed additional signs of softening the harsh rhetoric he’d used over the past two years against another Obama administration priority: On NBC’s “Today” show on Wednesday, McCain said he’d welcome comprehensive immigration reform once the borders had been secured.”

      Maybe he started taking his meds again?

      • 207. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 7, 2011 at 8:17 am

        maybe ; ) or maybe just a soldier following orders?

  • 208. Joel  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:28 pm

    Well, here’s a personal story about the power of words that is currently unfolding in my life:

    Mark’s mother has never been supportive of Mark’s orientation or our relationship, and she has been downright hostile on several occasions, perhaps most notably when she threatened Mark’s family members with expulsion from the family should they have the temerity to attend our “fake” wedding ceremony.

    But in our recent bout (and perhaps the deciding one, and Mark will finally have the epiphany that this woman is toxic), I insulted bovines everywhere by calling her no better than a cow. She has since informed Mark that she will have nothing more to do with him until he divorces me for calling her a cow.

    How ironic! One cannot get divorced unless one is married, so she has finally, albeit tacitly, acknowledged our marital status! We immediately emailed her and thanked her! Ah, the power of words!

    • 209. Lesbians Love Boies  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:33 pm

      Ironic to say the least. I hope one day you will all be on common ground. You and your husband seem to have great wit – which always helps get through those tormenting moments.

      Good luck – and Congrats!

      • 210. Joel  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:46 pm

        LLB, thanks for your kind wishes. Unfortunately, Mark’s family is, for the most part, hopeless. He has suffered physical and emotional abuse since he was very young, not only from his parents, but from his siblings and extended family as well. His sister is an adder, his niece even worse, and his “mother” is that brand of Christian that uses the Bible to denigrate others for the purpose of feeling superior. Mark is getting help, and MY family has accepted him unconditionally.

        And our puppy loves us both!

        • 211. anonygrl  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:52 pm

          And WE love you both too! It is great that you can take so much sorrow and turn it around and find a way to laugh about it.

          • 212. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:09 pm


        • 213. Phillip R  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:53 pm

          I really feel for your husband. I was very lucky myself but my first serious relationship was torn apart by his family who sounds much like your hubby’s. It was very tough on him and he ended up spending quite a long time in therapy before disowning them himself.

          And yay for puppy love. There’s something very charming about having something there that loves you regardless of how you look, what you do, how you feel about things….just unconditional in the truest sense.

          • 214. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:14 pm

            Every time I hear stories like Joel related and about Phillip’s partner makes me want to call my parents up to tell them yet again for accepting me and my hubby unconditionally. Love and Hugs to all who’s families reject them and have suffered as a result….

          • 215. nightshayde  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:21 pm

            This is one of the reasons I’m making bouquets — to let loving couples know that there are complete strangers who are thrilled for them even if their own families can’t be.

            I can’t even IMAGINE cutting ties with my daughter because of the person she eventually falls in love with. Even if it turns out that I don’t like her choice of partner (which would be if the person didn’t treat her with the love & respect she deserves – not because the person didn’t fall into a cookie cutter pattern of some sort), I will still love HER.

          • 216. Phillip R  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:29 pm

            That’s a good idea Greg. Think I’ll do that myself today.

            However…and more semantics….(my partner reads here and I’m sure he’d want it corrected) that was my first serious relationship and not my current one. The issues with his family and the actions of them (they lived in the same small town and he worked with the family in a family owned business) just tore our relationship apart from the inside. He was constantly depressed, drinking all the time. I tried to get him to go to counseling but he wasn’t ready to admit the problem himself. Eventually, it became too much of a draw on me as well.

            Good part about the breakup is that it kinda woke him up enough to realize that he was having some serious problems and needed help. We still talk occasionally and he’s so much better off now.

          • 217. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:29 pm

            WOOT to Nightshade’s bouquets!

          • 218. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:39 pm

            I appreciate your clarification showing respect to your partner : ) Hope you two are enjoying life together!

            Comments about “puppy love” really sobers me up. My two oldest kids do not talk to me, seemingly because I was not open with them(in simple terms) about being gay. And as a result I don’t have contact with my 1st grand baby(yet!).

            I have fabulous relationships with 10 & 13 year old kids who only know me as their gay day who loves them unconditionally….and they love me back akin to the sweetness of unconditional puppy love. I vote for honest behavior to all those in our life, despite the ages. If kids swear with friends…I hope they don’t modify their behavior just because I’m a grownup. If they choose not to swear, I accept that behavior as well. Remember the good-old-days where fathers inspired “respect” and “appropriate behavior by whipping kids with belts and other objects…

            My gosh! I am just rambling today! thanks all you dear persons for communicating your perspectives and knowledge. I better sign off and try to complete 3 hrs of work in the next 45 mins!

            Love and LIGHT!

          • 219. Joel  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:58 pm

            Your ex’s story is so similar to Mark’s! He worked for his mother and stepfather, too, until his stepfather passed and she sold the business out from under him!

          • 220. Phillip R  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:13 pm

            That’s crazy Joel! He ran into something very similar to that as well. They made it a point to let him know that they would be selling the business when they were retiring and he would not inherit it. If you hadn’t said his name was Mark (instead of Mike), I’d almost wonder if it wasn’t the same guy.

    • 221. anonygrl  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:33 pm

      What a mooving story!

      Honestly, though, it made me giggle. And well done on the quick pick up of her “gaffe”. It just goes to show that even in the minds of people like that, we are making progress!


      • 222. Ed  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:44 pm

        Mooving? or moving?
        Cause it u really mean “mooving”, that was just too damn funny LOL

        • 223. anonygrl  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:50 pm

          Cud I have meant anything but mooving? It would be udderly ridiculous to think anything else. Not to milk a joke, or anything, but holy cow, my post was the cream of the crop, and that’s no bull.

          • 224. nightshayde  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:15 pm

            I like you. I really really like you.

          • 225. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:15 pm

            waaaaaaa I just spit water all over my computer…

          • 226. nightshayde  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:17 pm

            *hands Gregory a ShamWow*

          • 227. Elizabeth Oakes  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:32 pm

            Beef-ore this thread goes any further, I’d just like to say that I herd that the vegetarians are mooobilizing against cow jokes, as they are a cattle-ist for those who hate bovines. Dairy interesting, don’t you think?

          • 228. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:41 pm

            AAAawwwww…make it stop! I must sign off….must stop laughing…

          • 229. anonygrl  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:00 pm

            Veal be happy to see you when you come back, Gregory, and until then its a toss up if we can leather the storm of baaaad puns (hay, hoof forgot to close the barn door and let that sheep in here?).

          • 230. JonT  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:37 pm

            Please stop. :)

          • 231. Elizabeth Oakes  |  January 7, 2011 at 2:10 pm

            I concede, and will ruminate further.

      • 232. Joel  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:50 pm

        You have such a way with words! A perfect illustration of how versatile, powerful, and useful the English language can be! Thanks for the laugh, we like to try and find the humor. I’m not a great baker, so instead of cookies, how about bananas Foster with B&J ice cream? It is, after all made with MILK.

        • 233. anonygrl  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:53 pm

          I accept!

          • 234. Joel  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:03 pm

            Let me know when you’ll be in Vegas, baby! (It’s a state law that we have to follow the word “Vegas” with “baby.”)

          • 235. anonygrl  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:26 pm

            Hmmm…. We’ve been discussing the possibility of a Feed Equality board meeting in Vegas (baby)…

            Now if we could just get some of that FCKH8 money that NOM seems to feel there is so darned much of to help PAY for it…

          • 236. Lesbians Love Boies  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:31 pm

            Yeah – what anonygrl said!

          • 237. Joel  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:31 pm

            Oh, board meeting! That calls for snacks, not dessert. I can make veggie pate, with pistachios and portobello and porcini mushrooms, and serve it with toasted naan bread…

          • 238. anonygrl  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:52 pm

            Hey, LLB, why is Joel not yet our official caterer? Make it so!

            And see if he can do something for our weekly skype board meetings… maybe sent out by Fedex?


          • 239. Kathleen  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:54 pm

            wow. that pate sounds delicious!

          • 240. Joel  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:03 pm

            It is, Kathleen! It is! E-mail me at justjoel59 at gmail dot com if you want the recipe. You’ve gotta have good food processor though.

        • 241. Richard A. Jernigan  |  January 7, 2011 at 7:58 pm

          And all of you have made me so HUNGRY! Bananas Foster!?!? I keep forgetting if there is any particular flavor of Ben & Jerry’s you have to use or if it can be made with any and all of their chocolate flavors.

    • 242. Kathleen  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:35 pm

      This made me laugh out loud.

      I realize there is nothing funny about the pain inflicted by this woman and how wrenching it must be for your husband and you, but when I saw that you sent a ‘thank you’ email, it made my day!

      • 243. Joel  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:54 pm

        I am such a BIG fan of yours! Thanks for acknowledging the pain that this woman (and her unholy family) has caused Mark orr the years. And please, go ahead and laugh. It’s no old wive’s tale that it’s the BEST medicine!

      • 244. nightshayde  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:04 pm

        Hee hee — I missed the e-mail part. Brilliant!

        Joel — WE love you, even if Mark’s mother can’t bother herself to do the same.

        • 245. Joel  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:10 pm

          Thanks so much! We’re feeling the love! Care to join us and Anonygirl for bananas Foster in Vegas (baby. See above post!)

          • 246. nightshayde  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:17 pm

            I’ll happily join you in spirit! I’m not sure I like Bananas Foster … but some other dessert (cheesecake???) would be most welcome. =)

          • 247. Joel  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:24 pm

            How about a lemon icebox cheesecake (I’m not much of a baker, as I said) iced with chocolate ganache?

          • 248. nightshayde  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:26 pm

            I’d be willing to try. =)

        • 249. Kathleen  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:20 pm

          Ditto the love, to Joe and Mark! xoxox

          • 250. Kathleen  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:21 pm

            Of course, that was supposed to be “Joel” and my fingers misbehaved.

          • 251. Joel  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:27 pm

            Heheh! I’ve been called worse!

          • 252. anonygrl  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:29 pm

            Apparently you have been called worse by your own mother-in-law.


          • 253. Joel  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:37 pm

            @anonygrl: not really, but I have been informed several times that I will suffer the eternal fire of Hell.

            I’m SO frightened. I sure WOULD like to show thi MIL that animation starring Maggie and St. Peter though!

          • 254. anonygrl  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:41 pm

            Honestly, all the best people are going to be in Hell anyway, so I expect the party there is going to be MUCH more entertaining than the one in Heaven.

            Plus, they won’t have hellfire, so no s’mores for them (which would get their white robes all chocolatey and sticky anyway).

            S’mores, good company… you can’t beat that combo!

          • 255. Elizabeth Oakes  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:46 pm

            Who was it that said, “Heaven for the climate, Hell for the society?” Was it Twain?

          • 256. anonygrl  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:54 pm

            I don’t know, but it sure SOUNDS like Twain, and I am certain he is making s’mores right now, and I look forward to meeting him.

          • 257. Ed Cortes  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:02 pm

            It was Twain – thanks to google!

          • 258. Elizabeth Oakes  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:04 pm

            Thanks Ed, and I can leave both climate and society if there are s’mores in the mix (yum.)

    • 259. Sheryl, Mormon Mother of a wonderful son who just happens to be gay  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:11 pm

      As others have said, a funny story. Just wondering if you heard anything back from that e-mail. Yet, as the mother of a gay son, I have problems understanding his mother’s attitude. My son is my son and I’m glad he came to an acceptance of his homosexuality before going the straight route and being the “good little Mormon boy” who married in the temple (or married at all to a woman) only to leave his family when he fell in love. Or, just denied who he is and lived a lie his whole life.

      Mark’s mother sounds a little like my mother who felt that everything her children did that she considered unacceptable by society was a negative reflection on her.

      Sheryl, Mormon Mother

      • 260. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:16 pm

        WOOT to SMM!!!!

  • 261. Mandi  |  January 6, 2011 at 12:56 pm


  • 262. Rhie  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:33 pm


    I want to know what Brian Brown thinks is a mainstream gay group. This group has been together for a while, and has attracted people – LGBT and hetero – from all over the world.

    We talk about all kinds of issues, share recipes, and generally have a great time hanging out together. We allow all points of view, provided people aren’t attacking others.

    We and our leaders here are hardly ignored by the media.

    We’ve organized successful campaigns to call representatives to voice our viewpoint.

    It doesn’t GET more mainstream than that!

    • 263. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:42 pm

      : D !!

    • 264. anonygrl  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:48 pm

      Another good point about how words and inflections make all the difference. By putting mainstream in quotes and preceding it with so-called they think they are sneakily getting away with insulting us and showing we are no such thing.

      Frankly, I think of them as a group of so-called “human beings”.

  • 265. Suzanne (not for much longer) O.  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:40 pm

    @JoeRH: I’m a lurker, and I agree with you on all points. Keep in mind that I grew up in a household where my Mom cried when I said the word “damn” in front of her. :)

    • 266. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:45 pm

      Hugs to Suzanne and JoeRH’s mothers! You have shown great loyalty and represented them well today. Your viewpoints and contributions are welcome!

    • 267. fiona64  |  January 6, 2011 at 1:53 pm

      And I grew up in a household where the word “piss” was forbidden.

      Somehow “I’m pissed off” has a different feel from “I am thoroughly chagrined” … and oftentimes the former is the appropriate response.

      Fiona (who doesn’t care how people express themselves for the most part, so long as it doesn’t devolve into hate speech … and even then people are free to express themselves in any way they so choose in spaces other than hers, i.e., no hate speech in my house or on my FB … but go to town in your own. I could not care less.)

  • 268. 415kathleenk  |  January 6, 2011 at 2:54 pm

    anyone else following the debate and comments in The Economist- Evan Wolf vs. Maggie G. Its awesomely entertaining. Here is a quote from one commenter that pretty much explains everything:
    “Regardless of where you stand on the issue, putting it up for debate supports the notion that it’s debatable. Maggie Gallagher is smart enough to know which way same-sex marriage is heading. She also knows if she can perpetuate the notion that this is an issue that needs more debate and “research,” she can keep earning her six-figure income.

    I guess the burden on those of us who support equal rights for gay people is to figure out how to end the debate and demand action from legislators and courts. If left to the people, this “debate” will drag on forever!”

    ’nuff said? heheehheh
    Cheers kath

  • 269. Ronnie  |  January 6, 2011 at 4:07 pm

    Oh for crying out f@#king loud…..NOM & co. will use anything & everything that we use & do to stand up against them as wrong & unacceptable….the peaceful protest with rainbow umbrellas in Albany, NY was used by NOM in their propaganda ads…..their anti-gay pals at FRC & even Jennifer “I want people to think I’m a lesbian or LGBT rights supporter by wearing a rainbow scarf” Roback Morse have issues with the “It Gets Better Project”….calling it “indoctrination”…..They have issues with the “My Princess Boy” book written by a heterosexual….NOM had issues with the fact that Garden State Equality had a press conference with real life testimonies from innocent people that NOM is attacking…Children that NOM cares nothing about….(I WAS THERE) that aired on TV & got press during NOM’s summer of destroy marriage tour & all they got was a little blip…….

    It is NOT about the language….that is a straw that they are grasping at…It is about anything & everything being pro-Equality/LGBT/Freedom… is a Fascist tactic by them(NOM) to divide what they fear is getting stronger…..PERIOD…..<3….Ronnie

    • 270. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 6, 2011 at 5:42 pm

      : D !!

  • 271. Michael  |  January 6, 2011 at 6:53 pm

    I do not support using profanity to get out our message of equality. We cannot win an argument on children using/hearing profanity and this is why our side should never have gone there to begin with. However, the chutzpah of radical anti-gay pressure group NOM is breath taking. In California and Maine, they used children in commercials to scare people into sending them $$$ and voting against marriage equality. In Calfornia on some channels, these commercials played multiple times every hour! Shrill anti-gay activists Brown and Gallagher never fail to sink to a new low in order to keep those pay checks flowing in! When are they going to give these ill-gotten gains to the poor and needy as Christ commands them?

    • 272. Carpool Cookie  |  January 6, 2011 at 11:59 pm

      And there were the parents of the little blonde girl in Boston (?) (of course the christianists thought a blonde would appeal to their group best) who was snapped without anyone’s consent while watching marriages at City Hall of wherever….and was then used over and over as the face of that campaign arguing that “innocent children” would be indoctrinated.

      her parents resented their daughter being used and her image manipulated in that way, when she had their consent to be there.

      • 273. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 7, 2011 at 8:22 am

        oooo…good memory(little blonde girl)…note to self and warning to others…no bullshit when razor-sharp attorneys, news paper editors, Allies or Rabbi’s are in the house!

        • 274. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 7, 2011 at 8:25 am

          ps. is that the correct use of the word “bullshit” kind of new to swearing…though not afraid to try it out ; )

        • 275. Richard A. Jernigan  |  January 7, 2011 at 11:42 am

          Or rebbitizens, Gregory? LOL!

          • 276. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  January 10, 2011 at 6:33 am

            : D !

          • 277. Richard A. Jernigan  |  January 10, 2011 at 6:49 am

            It’s all good. This particular rebbitizen is a veteran of the US Navy, and believe me, there is a very good reason that the phrase goes “curse like a sailor.”

  • 278. John B.  |  January 6, 2011 at 7:32 pm

    Do they really not see the irony that THEY are now one of the groups “using shocking images of children spewing angry obscenities to raise money for their cause”?? (Of course when I tried pointing this out in the comments section on their blog, my comment was never posted.)

  • 279. Sagesse  |  January 6, 2011 at 9:03 pm

    Revisionist history, Republican-style.

    Huck Finning the Constitution

    “If there’s anything great about this country, it’s in our ability to account for and overcome our mistakes.” We shouldn’t pretend we didn’t make them.”

  • 280. Richard A. Jernigan  |  January 6, 2011 at 10:28 pm

    Actually, I would like to see Brian have to eat his words on National TV in front of all NOM’s sheeple. I would really like to see everyone at NOM and all of those they are fronting for sent to prison on campaign law violations and tax evasion. That is, after all, exactly what they deserve. Unfortunately, we will never see NOM get anything more than a slap on the wrist!

    • 281. Chris in Lathrop  |  January 7, 2011 at 8:58 am

      That would go over like Limbaugh apologizing for his addictions and Martha Stewart doing her sentence “voluntarily,” unfortunately. Sheeple, no matter their cause, seem to be indoctrinated to absolve their leaders of anything.

  • 282. Carpool Cookie  |  January 7, 2011 at 1:07 pm

    For some reason, today my head keeps hearing a house mix ofCherry Bomb.with the FCKH8 snipets dropped in.


  • 283. Dave in ME  |  January 25, 2011 at 9:32 am

    I know it’s an old issue now, but I came across a letter from Glaad on Sunday that reminded me of this discussion.

    The slogan for Glaad on the letter is “Words And Images Matter.” It made me wonder why words matter on our end but the concerns that another group might have about the words WE choose to use don’t matter. It seems hypocritical.

    Dave in Maine

    • 284. Rhie  |  January 25, 2011 at 12:16 pm

      the comment below – 284 – was supposed to be here in reply to you, Dave. I don’t now why it didn’t post here.

  • 285. Rhie  |  January 25, 2011 at 12:13 pm

    Not all concern is equal. How much weight any group or person gives to another’s issues about something that group said depends on a LOT of factors. For instance, is the group expressing concern sincere? Are the concerns valid or just pearl clutching or bigotry in disguise?
    For example, concern from NOM of the F— videos shouldn’t be given a whole lot of weight. For one thing, they say they care about the kids in the video being exploited and then turn around and use pictures from those videos without their permission or parent’s permission in anti-equality ad.

    More than that, this is a group that expresses concern about LGBT lives in general as being a threat to society and the world in general. That’s just bigotry in disguise.

    Now, contrast that to some members here who said “I am personally not comfortable with it, but I see the point. I also wouldn’t tell anyone else to follow my morality on this issue either.”

    Those posts generally sparked good discussion about the context and intended audience of the videos. At the very least they ended in respect most of the time.

    • 286. Dave in ME  |  January 26, 2011 at 5:08 am

      Hi, Rhie-

      I see what you are saying-those are good points. I haven’t seen it put that way so clearly before and it makes a lot of sense.

      Thanks for taking the time to address this after all this time has passed!

      Dave in Maine

      • 287. Rhie  |  January 26, 2011 at 12:25 pm

        Dave –

        You are welcome! I understand your reasons for asking. I do think we should take time to answer real concerns and questions people have. :)


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