Is NOM on the side of Malaysia or tolerance and acceptance?

April 20, 2011 at 6:57 am 159 comments

By Adam Bink

NOM’s Maggie Gallagher likes to ask “Do I have blood on my hands?” and defend herself against attacks by folks like GetEqual as being responsible for gay kids killing themselves. Yet I have trouble seeing the difference between this:

Malaysian authorities have sent 66 boys to a four day reparative therapy camp to “cure” them of the gay, the AP reports:

Gay rights advocates decried the measure as a symptom of widespread homophobia in this Muslim-majority country where gay sex is illegal.

The boys between 13 and 17 years old reported Monday for what is officially being called a “self-development course” after their schoolteachers in Terengganu state (in red on map) identified them as students who displayed effeminate mannerisms, said Razali Daud, the state’s education director.

They will undergo religious and motivational classes and physical guidance, Razali said. He declined to give further details.

The camp is meant “to guide them back to the right path in life before they reach a point of no return,” Razali told The Associated Press. “Such effeminate behavior is unnatural and will affect their studies and their future.”

And this:

National Org. For Marriage’s Ruth Institute now pushing ‘ex-gay’ therapy

NOM-adffiliate-buttonIn a new post to their blog, the Ruth Institute, an official National Organization for Marriage affiliate, is lending credence to the “ex-gay” advocacy of one Dr. Phillip Sutton, who is himself an affiliate of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) [and who is also editor of NARTH’s so-called Journal of Human Sexuality, a self-published document they’ve been trying to push out as a credible scientific journal]. Here’s the kind of “change” mentality that NOM’s Ruth Institute is working to cultivate among their supposedly civil-marriage-focused flock:

“Reparative therapy technically is an approach to providing psychological care for unwanted SSA which is strongly influenced by the ideas and techniques of the psychoanalytic and other psychodynamic schools of therapy. Joseph Nicolosi is perhaps the best known therapist practicing and teaching this approach at the present time.

While I certainly have studied and received professional training in the conduct of “reparative therapy”, and do use some of the interventions commonly practiced for helping clients become aware of, feel and express or otherwise resolve feelings about which they are unaware, my own approach looks and sounds different. To those knowledgeable about psychotherapy, my approach reflects a number of influences: cognitive-behavior therapy (CBT), assertiveness training, family systems (especially structural, strategic, conjugal relational enhancement), the Twelve Step model (fraternal and mentor support to achieve sobriety — sexual self-control, the resolution of “core issues” in the pursuit of “serenity”, or peace of mind and joy of heart). I also encourage the regular practice of journaling, relaxation and meditative prayer in my work (as do many “reparative therapists” and others trained in other approaches to psychotherapy).”

“Please do not condone, excuse or enable behavior that ultimately will be harmful to their medical, psychological, relational, and spiritual health. ‘Misguided mercy’ is not loving, even if in the short run it avoids or minimizes conflict and leads them to feel less rejected by us and us less rejected by them.”
FULL INTERVIEW WITH SUTTON: Same-sex attraction: a therapist’s view [Mercator via NOM’s Ruth Institute]

There’s no shock therapy (we think) or violence, but its two ends to the same means. One is in an extremely anti-gay country… the other is within the confines of an extremely anti-gay group. No one should “tsk tsk” at the former and give scientific credence, or a pass, to the latter.

Make up your mind, Maggie and NOM. Are you on the side of Malaysia or tolerance and acceptance?

Entry filed under: NOM Exposed.

House Republicans authorize $500,000 to defend DOMA Afternoon equality round-up

159 Comments Add your own

  • 1. Errin N Davenport  |  April 20, 2011 at 7:09 am

    Wow! NOM is as crazy as fanatic Muslim extremists. It is amazing how not shocked I am by this revelation.

    • 2. Kathleen  |  April 20, 2011 at 7:29 am


      • 3. Ed Cortes  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:42 am

        Malaysia – oh – this is a test, isn’t it?

    • 4. Steve  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:16 am

      There is really no difference whatsoever between Christian and Muslim fundamentalists. It’s the exact same mindset and motivations. The only difference is that government and religion tend to be very intertwined in Muslim countries, while western nations have laws that protect us from these sociopaths

      • 5. StraightGrandmother  |  April 20, 2011 at 7:33 pm

        You are right Steve

  • 6. Lesbians Love Boies  |  April 20, 2011 at 7:11 am

    Sick! These are the people that need therapy, not me!

  • 7. Sagesse  |  April 20, 2011 at 7:19 am

    “…providing psychological care for unwanted SSA ”

    Unwanted by whom?

    • 8. Alan E  |  April 20, 2011 at 7:49 am

      Unwanted by them, but they tell you that you (and god) shouldn’t want it either.

      • 9. Sagesse  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:08 am

        I was referring to the conservative/religious ‘strict discipline’ school of parenting wherein it is the parents’ obligation to pound wayward and sinful notions out of their minor child…. and while they’re at it, their adult child as well. Darwin forbid they should let the child find their own way.

        No one is asking the child what they want or unwant.

  • 10. Ronnie  |  April 20, 2011 at 7:21 am

    NOM (National Organization for Maltreatment) & the Rack Institute…..I mean Ruth…. affiliating themselves with the National Organization for Rape & Torture of Homosexuals (NARTH)……..(throws up…a lot)

    In related news….

    Malaysian Women’s Minister Says ‘Ex-Gay’ Camp Violates Law

    Malaysia’s Women’s Minister has spoken out about the camp, saying it’s unlawful and should be abolished, the BBC reports:

    An education official said the camp was meant to guide the boys back “to a proper path in life”.

    But the women’s minister, Shahrizat Abdul Jalil, said singling out these children based on perceived feminine mannerisms was traumatising and harmful to their mental health. The camp violates the Child Act, which protects children without prejudice, she said.


    Activists say it is appalling that educators are persecuting children for expressing their personalities and identities. The Joint Action Group for Gender Equality said “corrective boot camps” violate the rights of people who are perceived as different.

    “It should be strongly opposed and challenged as it promotes homophobia and prejudice,” the group said in a statement.


    • 11. Ronnie  |  April 20, 2011 at 7:58 am

      Woah…lol….wrong word….”National Association”…not “Organization”……you get the point…..time for coffee……<3…Ronnie

  • 12. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 7:33 am

    Why doesn’t someone just take these dumb cunts out? They do nothing but poison society. They don’t deserve to live. If I get to a point in my life where I feel I have nothing to lose, the first thing I will do is track down these bitches and rip them limb from limb. Then send them in a box to their families.

    • 13. Kate  |  April 20, 2011 at 7:35 am

      My guess is that you’ve managed to make a post that the NOMbies will be thrilled to publicize to their own benefit.

      • 14. Southern Bell  |  April 20, 2011 at 7:42 am

        Agreed. Lots of threats and in that post. There are other, less violently worded, ways of expressing anger. I suggest letting emotions calm down before any publicized post that thousands could read.

      • 15. AnonyGrl  |  April 20, 2011 at 7:42 am

        And the sad news is that it is ONE post out of 4.5 million views the Trial Tracker has had, as opposed to the bile we see on their side, where it is one post out of two that is hateful and violent towards us.

        But you are right… this is the kind of thing they LIVE for, so that THEY can be the victims…


      • 16. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 7:44 am

        Oh please. Then we can just throw the guy with the two nooses back at them. I wouldn’t cry about this.

        • 17. AnonyGrl  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:59 am

          Sorry, JoeRH. I was not meaning to come down on you at all. I totally understand the frustration and anger. I know you are not advocating actual violence, you are merely expressing your feelings in a very graphic manner.

          I was just bemoaning the fact that NOM will use ONE post out of millions to prove that they are the victims, while ignoring the fact that every other word that comes out of the mouths of their supporters is vile towards us.

          • 18. Mouse  |  April 20, 2011 at 2:31 pm

            But the NOMnuts ARE the victims! Don’t you realize how often they stub their toes when they kick us in the face? Their delicate toes have feelings!

    • 19. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 7:45 am

      BTW I didn’t know I was so powerful. It’s interesting…

      • 20. Alan E  |  April 20, 2011 at 7:51 am

        you aren’t powerful. The words you have chosen are powerful, but not in a good way.

        • 21. Phil L  |  April 20, 2011 at 7:58 am

          Agreed. Someone from NOM could easily take that paragraph and run with it, giving their tiny support base something to yell and scream about. That would then spread among their conservative friends and become fodder for their “we’re the victims here” arsenal.

          • 22. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:03 am

            You guys are so paranoid. It’s a single post on a message board. I’d say it isn’t enough to paint our entire community, but we sure like to throw that picture from the NOM tour with the guy and the picture of nooses all over to paint all of the opposition as being on his side. Propaganda is propaganda.

        • 23. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:00 am

          Well, we all have our own ways of venting. Really, I didn’t say I have plans to do it. I said that if I get to a point where I feel I have nothing to lose, then I would snap. I don’t have plans to lose everything. So unless someone kills all of my family, my friends, burns all of my most precious possessions, and forces me to be permanently homeless, it isn’t going to happen.

          • 24. Phil L  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:03 am

            I understand that, but we all know that when someone wants ammunition they can easily ignore what you just said (that it isn’t going to happen) and just copy/paste your original paragraph and pretend nothing else was said (or pretend that we cheered you on.)

            That’s, sadly, how political campaigns work as well; sound bytes and whatnot.

          • 25. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:05 am

            So you also believe that if someone read this paragraph of mine in a NOM blog, they wouldn’t look for the post on our message board and see the rest? They’d want proof I would think. But if they’re the kind of people who would blindly take someone’s word for it, then they were bound to jump on some red herring anyway.

          • 26. Phil L  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:10 am

            It’s true that they’re bound to jump on a red herring, as they took Brian Brown at his word that the LGBT protesters who showed up at the Summer of Marriage Tour rallies were violent and rude when even Louis points out now that that was FAR from the truth.

            When people find a common cause against someone else they rarely take the time to look at the issue (or events) from both sides.

          • 27. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:16 am

            They didn’t have access to evidence since they weren’t there and it wasn’t video-taped, so even if they did buy what he said, there was no way for them to confirm it. You can confirm this. Unless the opposition doesn’t provide any indication of where the quote is from, which would make it even weaker.

      • 28. Lesbians Love Boies  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:11 am

        There really isn’t any reason to advocate violence, no matter who it’s aimed towards. It just leaves a bad impression.

    • 29. fiona64  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:41 am

      Not only is this just the kind of thing NOM loves to see … but also re-introduces my point that it is extraordinarily misogynistic to use vulgar slang for female anatomy to indicate stupidity, weakness, etc. Why is it okay to call people “cunts” but not “faggots,” Joe?

      • 30. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:49 am

        I guess if I called them “dicks” you would call me out as being misandrist? Probably not.

        PS – I use the word faggot when describing a gay man who is acting like a little bitch. Oops. Is “bitch” misogynistic too?

        • 31. Ann S.  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:23 am

          Yes. Yes, it is.

          • 32. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:12 am

            So what can I say that you women won’t get all huffy about? It’s almost laughable about how touchy you women are. What if I was a woman using those words. Would I still be labeled a misogynist?

          • 33. fiona64  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:21 am

            I’ve got news for you, Joe. No woman I know (and I know a lot of women) uses those terms. Period.

            I have called you out on your misogynistic language in the past, and you were dismissive then too. I’m not the only one calling you out this time, in case you haven’t noticed.

          • 34. fiona64  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:27 am

            JoeRH: It’s almost laughable about how touchy you women are.

            Thanks for further reinforcing/proving my point.

            I pity you, Joe.

          • 35. Mark M. (Seattle)  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:45 am

            LOTS of women use those words when appropriate Fiona. And yes sometimes even the C word is appropriate. :-)

          • 36. Sheryl Carver  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:21 am

            Late to party, but adding another woman’s voice:

            the terms JoeRH has been using in this post ARE misogynistic. I’ve never heard another woman use the “c” word to refer to another woman, no matter how much the speaker disliked that woman.

            Just apologize, JoeRH, or at least stop digging yourself in deeper.

          • 37. adambink  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:26 am

            First, JoeRH, the term you use is offensive to many in this community and broader. It’d be better to use none at all, but if you must feel the need to type insults, choose something else.

            Second, advocating violence is not tolerated in the comments. Please consider it a first warning. While enthusiasm is great, we all need to remember limits.


          • 38. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:31 am

            @ Sheryl – When I’m apologized to for being insulted and ripped apart for voicing my own version of an opinion, I’ll apologized. And again, what I say has been misinterpeted. When I say “you women,” it was in reference to the women who were arguing with me because all of them were overly defensive when I used words that could be attributed to misogyny. I still wonder if I used the word “dick” if I’d be called out by Fiona or you or any other woman for being misandrist.

            You and Fiona don’t know anyone who uses those words, but as Mark M. pointed out, there are in fact women who use those words.

          • 39. Sheryl Carver  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:32 am

            Thanks, Adam.

            Just when I thought maybe we really didn’t need moderation here, that the big blowup from a week or 2 ago was an anomaly, this happens. Sigh.

            Anyway, thanks again for stepping in.

          • 40. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:54 am

            @ Adam: You got it. I’ll be true to my feelings outside the board. If I want to complain again, I’ll be G-rated. Although, maybe you can help me out with something: How is it ok to promote a video where kids are saying the F-word as if it’s something to celebrate? I don’t see a big difference between 5 year olds flipping off the screen and using the F-word and me using harsh words to insult our enemies. I just see hypocrisy here. They’re both inappropriate, yet my little blurb gets called out when you posted an entire article defending the FCK HATE video.

          • 41. adambink  |  April 20, 2011 at 12:07 pm

            @JoeRH First, thank you for agreeing to guidelines.

            Second, the FCKH8 video is a very fine line. The video and its benefit ultimately is a healthy topic of discussion on whether it’s a positive tool of advocacy or not (something good people can disagree upon).

            You may even remember I wrote at the time that I would have gone about the video in a different way. So even I was not 100% positive on the swearing in the video. I think it does some good things (like raise money) and does some damage. It depends on the audience.

            But ultimately, the video is a worthy discussion on whether it is a positive tool to use and whether it advances equality, which is my guideline for discussion here at P8TT.

            It’s a good question, and thanks for asking.

          • 42. Ann S.  |  April 20, 2011 at 12:12 pm

            @Adam, if I may, I would like to add that there’s a big difference between hurling invective and curses at someone’s action (such as was done in the FCK HATE video) and hurling invective at a person.

            It’s not just the words used, it’s the target.

          • 43. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 12:28 pm

            @Adam: When I made my comment on the FCK HATE video, I was attacked and accused of siding with Brian Brown. How was that effective? I tried to voice my opinion and was attacked. I didn’t even use curse words or violence! I think there’s a general problem on this board of people respecting the right to others’ opinions.

          • 44. adambink  |  April 20, 2011 at 12:55 pm

            @JoeRH I didn’t say it was effective. It isn’t. I’ve tried to point out here that dialogues run two ways. Responding to an offensive word by calling someone a name, or equating him or her with Brian Brown, isn’t appropriate either. I’ve asked various people to disengage from that in this thread.

            The bottom line is respect for people and their arguments, and keeping dialogue civil and respectful — on both sides. We are all on the same team here, and if we disagree, we must do so respectfully and recognize we will agree most of the other time.

  • 45. AnonyGrl  |  April 20, 2011 at 7:38 am

    “While I certainly have studied and received professional training in the conduct of “reparative therapy”, and do use some of the interventions commonly practiced for helping clients become aware of, feel and express or otherwise resolve feelings about which they are unaware, my own approach looks and sounds different. “

    His approach looks and sounds different.

    It is NOT fundamentally different, but it looks and sounds different, so huzzah!

    How is it illegal to abuse children, yet still legal to put them in reparative therapy?

    “Please do not condone, excuse or enable behavior that ultimately will be harmful to their medical, psychological, relational, and spiritual health.”

    I don’t. I STRONGLY object to the enormous harm you are doing to children, Dr. Sutton. As does the legitimate medical and psychological profession in this country.

    Oh, and NOM… tell us again how you support homosexuals in all their rights, that the only thing you are fighting for is “not changing the definition of marriage.” Tell us again how you love us, please, because I am having a LITTLE trouble finding the love.

  • 46. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  April 20, 2011 at 7:39 am

    Dr. Joseph Nicolosi in a huff:

    Two Of Exodus’ Founders Come Out As ‘Ex-Ex-Gay’

  • 47. Straight for Equality  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:02 am

    Subs now, read later.

  • 48. Don in Texas  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:11 am

    There is no such thing as an “ex-gay.”

    • 49. Lesbians Love Boies  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:12 am

      Right Don, that’s like calling me an ex-straight!

    • 50. Steve  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:18 am

      There is only “not currently sucking cock” and “not currently licking pussy”

      • 51. nightshayde  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:46 am

        I’m doing neither. I’m at work. >.>

  • 52. DazedWheels  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:20 am

    @Adam Will you please remove, or at least address in a comment, the inappropriately theatening and misogynistic language in the previous posts in this thread? I expect better than that here. Thanks.

    • 53. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:32 am

      I’m so bad. I shouldn’t be able to speak my mind.

      You know, one of the biggest problems with our fight is that there is absolutely no aggression of any kind. We all sit back and wait for people to see how nice we are. We don’t fight, we just sit pretty hoping to change minds. Preaching to the choir and signing petitions only go so far. I’m not saying what I said is a good example of an aggressive move, but I’m getting really tired of how wimpy we are in this fight. It’s no wonder so many people think of us as “weak.”

      • 54. fiona64  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:42 am

        Dear Joe:

        Do you really think Louis would have changed his mind if all of us behaved like you have today?

        I don’t.

        • 55. Sheryl Carver  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:22 am


        • 56. Kathlene  |  April 21, 2011 at 12:59 am

          I don’t think queer people shouldn’t express anger in the rare event that a homophobe decides to be a decent human being. Just sayin’.

      • 57. Colleen  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:51 am

        You can speak your mind, but you have to be aware that it has consequences. I don’t think you are weak, I think you are strong and wonderful and I love you and all gay people and I really really want you to win this fight. I think you will win by being better than your opponents, who are hateful and nasty.

        • 58. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:05 am

          Well, if I’m ever out in public speaking to a large group of people saying what I said, I’d be more worried. A blurb on a message board doesn’t have that power. What would help all this potential damage is that everyone here is pissed at me for being overzealous with my language and anger. It will support their argument that we don’t want to hear anything we don’t like.

    • 59. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:51 am

      Another thing: what you are doing right here is trying to smother my right to free speech. That is EXACTLY what the opposition is always saying about us. I guess you’re proof of that.

      • 60. adambink  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:28 am

        Let me be clear: there isn’t a right to free speech in here any more than there is to shout fire in a public theater. The English language is a big place. Choose words that do not incite violence and aren’t offensive to broad segments of the community. It’s not hard.

        • 61. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:47 am

          agree with this statement:
          Choose words that do not incite violence and aren’t offensive to broad segments of the community

  • 62. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:46 am

    Fiona, stop writing me. I do not like you. All you do is complain about what I say and my opinions.

    • 63. Kate  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:52 am

      Congratulations, Fiona!

      • 64. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:55 am

        Kate – So you think hindering free speech and discussion is something to honor? Guess you’re proving the oppositions complaints that we always poo on free speech.

        • 65. Kate  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:57 am

          My congratulations were for Fiona making it to your “don’t like” list. Please, please, please add me, too!

          • 66. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:03 am

            I guess if your goal is to be disliked, then sure. I can put you on my supposed list. I don’t actually have a list, but I guess if there are two of you, it is kind of a list. The sad thing is is that even though I put you on this “list” you’ll still be complaining about everything I say that doesn’t fit into your perfect form of conversation. We don’t want any diversity in our discussions here. We just all need to be nice and G-rated.

          • 67. Kate  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:06 am

            Actually, I don’t remember ever posting anything to you before now. Inflated ego, much? Discussion and murder threats are quite different, obviously. Thanks for adding me to your banishment list!

          • 68. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:10 am

            No, I’ve heard from you before, I just rarely post. I guess I’ll be posting less now that I know my statements aren’t welcome. Damned free speech. How dare I give myself that right.

          • 69. Phillip R  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:32 am

            In all actuality, you don’t necessarily have free speech here. It’s not a law that the people that run this site allow you to rant. They are just a bit more courteous in allowing open and honest conversation to a certain point.

            So, you can rant about your free speech rights all you want…it’s really a moot point in this context.

          • 70. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:36 am

            Sure Philip. If they allow open discussion, then obviously free speech is welcome. So unless the web mediator removes posts due to their content, I am justifiably utilizes my right to speak freely on this website.

          • 71. Phillip R  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:37 am

            There is a difference between open communication and free speech.

            There was a post sometime in the last week specifically about moderation when it came to comments, etc. Perhaps you should check it out.

          • 72. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:10 am

            Sure Phillip…Let me go through this entire website and every message board until I find that topic… Provide a link and I’ll look at it.

          • 73. gaydadtobe  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:12 am


            A quick search for the term “moderate” and it was the 2nd article down.

          • 74. Phillip R  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:16 am

            It’s not that hard to find considering I specifically said it was in the last week (although I’m thinking maybe 2 weeks).

            But since you can’t take a few minutes to do so busy boy… ya go.


          • 75. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:21 am

            Searching for “moderate” didn’t work with my internet explorer. It came up with zero results. But I did read the article and it refers to religious topics only. It didn’t say anything that related to what I posted. Unless I missed something.

          • 76. Phillip R  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:23 am

            The specific argument was about religion in that post that gaydad posted (although the spirit of it should have been rather obvious for other topics) but not in the one I posted.

            Either way, this is a community that is forming guidelines and is moderated as needed. That’s my point. You don’t have a free pass simply because of open communication or in the name of ‘free speech’.

          • 77. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:24 am

            Phillip, that post refers to name-calling and unnecessary attacks. To me, this suggests situations between those on the message boards, not anger towards our enemies. I don’t think the intention was to prevent using any derogatory names against the opposition.

          • 78. Phillip R  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:28 am

            You’re right…the intention wasn’t based on using derogatory names towards opposition (IMHO, it’s rather immature though) but one towards mutual respect.

          • 79. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:49 am

            Phillip, why should I show respect to people who do not extend the respect to me. They spend their lives trying to make sure I’m beneath them by using the law as a weapon. They also use their bibles as weapons. I don’t owe them any respect. Respect is earned, not given. Until those freaks at NOM back off of my life and let me live the American life to the fullest, I will continue to talk shit about them.

          • 80. Phillip R  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:50 am

            I wasn’t talking about mutual respect with them…I was talking about mutual respect among community members here. That’s where you’re faltering.

      • 81. fiona64  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:29 am

        Yep, I’ve never posted anything here except to point out that Joe is a misogynist. Wow. Who knew?

        Sad little man.

        • 82. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:34 am

          No. You complained when I was angry with the FCKHATE thing with the kids swearing. You accused me of siding with Brian Brown. Then, in reference to everyone who was joining you in your anger, I said “you people” to address all of you. You called me out on that and accused me of being a troll. All you do is nitpick everything I say and get overly defensive. It’s irritating. And you also love to patronize me (sad little man?). Why the hell would I want to talk to someone who is so condescending? You and I are like oil and water; we do not have the ability to have a normal discussion, or at least you do not know how to respond without being a jerk.

          • 83. fiona64  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:52 am

            I’m not the one getting defensive, JoeRH. In case you hadn’t noticed.

            I’m a jerk because you say so? Dude, failing to meet with your approval makes me happy. Everyone knows that when a man calls a woman a bitch, what he really means is “She failed to kowtow to me.”

            I do think you’re a sad little man. If you think that’s name-calling, and you can justify your use of vulgarities about female anatomy by flinging “sad little man” back at me, I suggest you look up “false equivalency.” And also that you seek counseling.

          • 84. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:07 am

            Ugh, you just get more and more revolting. It is a great example of that line in As Good As It Gets when someone asks Jack Nicholson’s character how he writes women so well: “I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability.” So there ya go. You are proof that that line is not only funny, but true. So, I guess, indirectly, you make me laugh and laughter usually coincides with happiness. So, despite us both hating each other’s guts, we are both happy.

          • 85. Kathlene  |  April 21, 2011 at 1:00 am

            “You complained when I was angry with the FCKHATE thing with the kids swearing.”

            Which appears to be pretty ironic in hindsight.

        • 86. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:36 am

          Oh yeah: “sad little man” is name-calling. I guess you’re just as much of an offender.

        • 87. adambink  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:29 am

          At this point, you need to disengage. Hurling insults in a flame war doesn’t solve anything. Thanks, Fiona.

    • 88. Canadian JAG Officer  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:55 am

      are you 12yrs old? could you please grow up. although you are obviously free to write whatever you want I think that everyone would appreciate if you would pause for a moment and give a thought to what you are saying.
      Youre constant complaining is not really productive or appreciated.

      • 89. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 8:56 am

        I know. I should just sit patiently and not express my anger. God forbid I have my voice. You guys are just proving the opposition’s stance that we don’t like free speech.

        • 90. Southern Bell  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:04 am

          This is purely my opinion, but for me, free speech has its limits when it includes threats on another person or group of people. I think we can benefit from all opinions and learn from each other but threats against others is unproductive because it causes people to be defensive and therefore not open to others ideas as well as having a negative effect on the image of whoever issues a threat.

          • 91. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:08 am

            Well, not all of us are perfect. Some people…well I guess I’m alone…voice their anger more graphically. Instead of being me, I’ll just be how you all want me to be. Would it make you happy for me to deny my own feelings?

          • 92. DaveP  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:18 am

            Joe, by all means, feel free to express your feelings. Folks here are just encouraging you to use some common sense when you write about what you might DO about those feelings. Especially when you’re writing something that you don’t mean literally, but that the opposition can use out of context against us. It’s just shooting yourself in the foot, so to speak.

        • 93. gaydadtobe  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:17 am

          People that use this argument don’t really understand what free speech (or the suppression thereof) really means. We are in no way hindering your freedom of speech, as evidenced by this mini-debate right now. If we truly wanted to prevent your freedom, you would be silenced so that you couldn’t even speak your replies to our replies. THAT is the suppression that yo are thinking of.

          Voicing our opinion and concerns about what you are saying is in our own right, too. However, we are not doing it in a vulgar or incendiary manner. Read through again, and then reread what you initially wrote. Hopefully you will see the differences.

          • 94. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:25 am

            Oh, I’ve reread my post several times. I know it’s a terrible thing to say. It’s just my personality. In my personal life, I often go on rants like that. Now, nobody agrees with me and a lot of them feel uncomfortable, but they understand that I have this sick way of expressing anger. Maybe it’s because I love horror movies that I enjoy voicing violence. Or voice it so easily.

            Most everyone here wishes I had kept my mouth shut, which is denying me free speech.

          • 95. gaydadtobe  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:26 am

            No, they are asking you to not use that kind of language, not saying that you shouldn’t speak at all.

          • 96. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:33 am

            lol No. They don’t want me to say what I said. If I had used poopheads instead of the curse words, they’d still not want me to express my feelings that way. They don’t want me to say what I feel, but rather what they believe I should be saying. In other words, be like them.

    • 97. Ann S.  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:44 am

      Oh, the irony. You complain people are trying to stifle your speech while trying to stifle someone else’s.

      • 98. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:59 am


      • 99. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:08 am

        ??? When did I say I didn’t want someone to say something? I didn’t.

        • 100. Ann S.  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:13 am

          You told Fiona to stop writing to you.

          And now I shall stop writing to you.

          • 101. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:15 am

            Oh God. That’s pathetic. I don’t want to hear from her because she’s a bitch to me every single time I post. She can say whatever she wants, but I don’t want to talk to her. It’s not about what she says, but about her specifically. And thank you for no longer writing me. You offer nothing in this discussion anyway.

          • 102. Kate  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:16 am

            Welcome, Ann — we’re in good company!

          • 103. fiona64  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:32 am

            Boo-effing-hoo. Manage your own internet experience. It’s a public message board. You can scroll right on by if you don’t want to read my words. You, however, are one of the *many* reasons I would love to see a “block/hide user” feature implemented on this board.

            If the government hauls you away for expressing your opinions, then your freedom of speech has been abridged. Someone else using *their* freedom of speech to call you out is in no way stifling you or abridging your freedom. Freedom of speech does not guarantee you an approving audience – it just means you cannot be censured by the government.

            The bottom line here is that we are all subject to CC’s Terms of Service. So, really, you only have as much freedom as the moderator(s) allow you.

          • 104. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:40 am

            Interesting comment fiona…”It’s a public message board. You can scroll right on by if you don’t want to read my words.” I suggest you extend me the same courtesy.

            And Kate, thank you for your continous proof of how immature and passive-aggressive you are. “Congratulations Fiona!” “Welcome Ann – you’re in good company.” I remember experiencing people like you. That was in 5th grade though, so I guess I wasn’t expecting it while in my 20’s.

        • 105. Sagesse  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:36 am


          @JoeRH at 10:15 am

          I don’t think Fiona or anyone else on this board should have to tolerate being called a bitch. Kindly ‘moderate’ this person.

          • 106. Phillip R  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:43 am

            Just to play devil’s advocate, both of them are kinda feeding into eachother’s rants.

          • 107. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:43 am

            I guess the names I’m being called are ok though. Why are there so many wimps here? I was just reminding Fiona of her fight against my dislike of the FCK HATE campaign with the kids saying “fuck” repeatedly. Probably only one person agreed with me whereas everyone else told me I was siding with the opposition. Now I say “bitch” and it’s all inappropriate. It’s just hypocrisy here, that’s all. Little kids saying fuck is ok, but me calling the women of NOM and Ruth bitches is so inappropriate I need to be moderated. Make up your minds people.

          • 108. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:46 am

            Phillip, Fiona has a history of responding to me the way she is here. THAT is why I’m sick of hearing from her. She prevents me from even inching towards something that could be interpreted as a healthy conversation. She accuses me of being immature, yet, as you say, she feeds into it. That can only be described as immaturity.

          • 109. Phillip R  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:48 am

            I’m not really siding with either one of you. I think you’ve both let it get out of hand today and flaring back and forth isn’t helping anything. Just my opinion though. You’ve made yours obvious.

          • 110. fiona64  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:55 am

            My point at the time, Joe, was that a) the parents had given permission for their kids to participate in this project and b) that someone who goes around calling people “cunts” didn’t have much room to talk.

          • 111. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:03 am

            When that discussion was going on, I didn’t call ANYONE a cunt. You freaked out when I said I thought it was inappropriate for kids to use “fuck” and then I asked if “cunt” would be just as benign. You, being the overly defensive woman you are jumped on that and said that that word WAS inappropriate, undoubtedly because it can be a reference to a woman’s cooter. So it is dependent upon you which swear words are appropriate and which ones aren’t. Hypocrisy.

    • 112. fiona64  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:23 am

      I’ve got news for you, Joe. It’s a public message board. Honestly? I couldn’t give a smaller damn what you think of me. No one is “smothering your free speech.” You can say whatever stupid crap you want to.


      Your remarks have consequences — and one of them is that people will think you’re a complete ass. Which I do.

      • 113. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:45 am

        Well, back atcha Fiona. You have proven nothing to me other than you’re an ass who wants to argue everything I say and wants to be ridiculously defensive regarding anything that could in any way be construed as misogynistic. Again, I wonder if I was a woman if I’d be labeled a misogynist…

        • 114. fiona64  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:54 am

          “You’re being defensive,” he says.

          Okay, whatever.

          And your lengthy paragraphs are *what,* exactly?

          This is the last thing I will say to you, Joe, and I mean it. You remind me of my favorite Oscar Wilde quote: “I am no longer young enough to know everything.”

          You have a lot to learn for someone allegedly in his 20s, I think.

          • 115. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:00 am

            You’ve used that condescending Wilde quote on me already. Get some new material. You’ve also made little jabs about me not being as old as I say I am. Why would I lie? At least I get defensive when I’m actually being personally attacked rather than interpreting what someone ways about someone else as being about me. Kate mentioned earlier an inflated ego, which you are a perfect example of.

            Thank you for declining to respond to me further. You’ve done us both a big favor.

  • 116. Ronnie  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:15 am

    LGBT Stories: Mixed Race Gay Couple Faces Challenges And Triumphs From Within Family

    We met Jeffrey and Jon just a few days before Jeffrey’s grandmother, who’s mentioned in the story, came to visit. As they explain in the video, Indian culture and attitudes towards LGBT people are quite different than American culture so I was dying to know what happened when she visited. Jeffrey sent me an email informing me how the night went, along with the photo below, after the jump:

    “The long and short of it is, Jon came with me to our family dinner (kids and spouses) with Dadi (Grandma). Jon was clearly my companion at dinner. Not much was said to highlight us in particular but more than anything we were accepted and not questioned (which is the greatest gift in my mind in ANY relationship). She came to our house, got the tour, then plotted my marriage to an Indian woman for when I was ‘ready’…HAHAHAHA!”


    • 117. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:10 am

      tx for video Ronnie…enjoy all of them! I can relate to this story….my hubby was not invited to my oldest daughter’s wedding…I chose not to attend.

  • 118. Southern Bell  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:18 am

    I don’t think it is anyone’s intention for you to deny your own feelings. You’re not the only person visiting this site that gets angry. However, I do think you are exemplifying my point that threats reduce people’s openness to hearing your ideas. For instance, I would love to hear more about your views on what a “good example of an aggressive move” would be or ” how wimpy we are in this fight” since those are ideas I am not familiar with and want to learn more but I would like to read those views in a more professional manner.

    • 119. JoeRH  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:56 am

      Honestly, when I made my initial post, it was a statement. My question was rhetorical. It wasn’t meant to be discussed with me. If that was my intention, I would have asked if anyone else agreed with me.

      As far as aggression, I don’t know why we aren’t bringing up the hypocrisy and shady-ness of NOM to the public. Their twisted sense of morals, tax evasion, outright lies should all be made public. They point out aspects of us, but all we do is defend ourself against them. The only time the corruption of NOM and its buddies comes up is here, where 99.9% of the visitors are pro-gay anyway. Preaching to the choir is what that is.

      We make these videos of how federal marriage rights are affecting couples and showing how hurt we are because of all of this, but we never show the public who our enemies are. It’s pathetic. If we want to make a strong impact, we need to reveal our enemies to everyone else. Even the NOMExposed site is useless because it’s for pro-gay people. For people who are already interested in gay rights. That does absolutely nothing for us.

  • 120. Roger  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:24 am

    As someone from Malaysia this doesn’t surprise me, Malaysia has a poor track record of scholarship, they don’t even teach vital parts of Malaysian history if it doesn’t fit their narrative, and Tengganu is the Malaysian equivalent of the deep south.

    • 121. Roger  |  April 20, 2011 at 9:27 am

      And I forgot to mention they use stuff like sodomy laws to attack political opponents, generally ones who are straight in order to disqualify them from running for any public office for 8 years after an accusation, not even a conviction.

      • 122. Kate  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:12 am

        Roger, I’d sure be interested in hearing more about your experience in Malaysia. Did you grow up there? What kind of discrimination did you have to face?

        • 123. adambink  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:34 am

          I too would be interested in hearing about this.

      • 124. JonT  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:34 am

        Yeah – I hear that particular political “campaigning method” is popular in Uganda as well.

        Funny how that works eh?

  • 125. Ronnie  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:12 am

    Louisville Church Curbs Marriage Licenses Until Gays Can Marry

    Louisville’s Douglass Boulevard Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) voted unanimously on Sunday to stop signing marriage licenses until gay couples can marry as well:

    “As an Open and Affirming Community of Faith (a designation signifying DBCC’s commitment to full acceptance of all people, regardless of race, gender, age, or sexual orientation), our membership is committed to treating homosexuals and heterosexuals equally. Our congregation believes it is unfair to provide different services and benefits to heterosexual couples than we can provide to gay and lesbian couples,” said associate minister Rev. Ryan Kemp-Pappan.

    (me) Hey NOM, religious liberty…enough said…..<3…Ronnie

    • 126. Lesbians Love Boies  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:15 am

      It’s nice that they are taking a stand, but actually sad that they even have to take a stand like this.

  • 127. Sagesse  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:28 am

    Former Rutgers Student Dharun Ravi Indicted in Tyler Clementi Suicide

    Read more:

    • 128. JonT  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:38 am

      Good, I’m glad!

  • 129. Alan E.  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:32 am

    Freshly popped internet popcorn. Just going to watch the show from this point on.

    • 130. Lesbians Love Boies  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:34 am

      Good idea! Getting out the Jujubes and joining Alan on the couch.

      • 131. Ann S.  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:02 am

        I’ll bring the cookies.

        I also want to apologize for having played a part in today’s theatrics. I shall now remain on the couch. Or in the naughty corner, if appropriate.

        • 132. fiona64  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:12 am

          I’ll sit in the corner with you.

          “Bitch” and proud,

          • 133. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:19 am

            snort! spraying Barq’s RB on keyboard…

          • 134. adambink  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:33 am

            Flame wars aren’t shows. They’re insulting to people, they drive people away from the community, and they waste my time I could be spending winning equality.

            Engaging with someone calling names in a 27-comment long thread only leads to more people getting moderated and banned. Disengage.

  • 135. Doug  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:40 am

    Great post–and very disturbing.

    Anyone see this article:

    It provides in-depth analysis on recent polls concerning marriage equality–and the news is good. The conclusion: “One way to read the trends of the past few years is that we have passed an inflection point wherein it is no longer politically advantageous for candidates to oppose same-sex marriage, which in turn softens opposition to it among the general public, creating a sort of feedback loop and accelerating the trend.”

    I like the sound of that.

    • 136. Lesbians Love Boies  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:43 am

      Also, looking at the angling in the graph in just the last two years is quite dramatic. Love charts and graphs!

      Thanks for sharing Doug.

      • 137. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:25 am

        yes, thank you!

    • 138. gaydadtobe  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:44 am

      The only thing is that it is still good politics to demean gay people in some districts and states which still tips the balance of power out of proportion to reality.

    • 139. Phillip R  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:46 am

      I do too. It’s nice to see that we’re hitting and surpassing the breaking point. Probably still a ways off timewise, but honestly, I never expected something like this in my lifetime so I’m happy as could be.

    • 140. JonT  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:53 am

      I like the sound of that.

      Indeed – so do I :)

    • 141. Ann S.  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:10 am

      Thanks for posting this. Nate Silver knows numbers!

    • 142. Sagesse  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:35 am

      “If support for gay marriage were to continue accelerating as fast as it has in the past two years, supporters would outnumber opponents roughly 56-40 in the general population by November 2012.”

      I do like the sound of that.

      • 143. nightshayde  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:48 am

        I wonder what NOM will have to say about the importance of “letting the voters decide” when the voters tell NOM and their ilk to take a hike by voting in favor of marriage equality. I hope to find out really really soon. =)

        • 144. Phillip R  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:56 am

          I’ve wondered what they’ll spin at that point. One of their biggest arguments is the whole “it’s never successfully been voted by the people” deal. However, it WILL happen one day (even though it shouldn’t…the whole majority voting on minority rights) and what to say then?

          It’s not like they can backtrack and say the courts should decide….that’s obviously not in their favor.

          I gotta say that I really hope I live to see the day that NOM either shuts down completely because the good fight has been won by us or Maggie & Brian are forced to realize that they’re grasping at straws and those straws are getting fewer and fewer.

  • 145. Brad M  |  April 20, 2011 at 10:56 am

    Hey all, I read this blog–including the comments–daily but rarely comment. However, I have to share some personal thoughts/insights about Dr. Sutton.

    This interview with Phillip Sutton was quite surprising. I participated in a “Courage” group that he led in South Bend, Indiana back when I was an undergrad at ND. Thankfully, I am no longer interested in getting rid of my “unwanted SSA.” As an aspiring research psychologist, I thought I’d comment on a few of the things he said, reflecting also on my own experience with Dr. Sutton’s group.

    On the positive side (if it can be said to be positive) Dr. Sutton doesn’t push reparative therapy–as he says in his article. He mainly seems to focus on helping men and women to avoid “acting on their SSA.” That is, he assists people in being lay celibates, something much more attainable than switching one’s sexual orientation.

    On the other hand, there is an inherent contradiction in his work. He writes, “Learning to recognize, stop and replace habits of self-shaming and condemning with inner self-talk which “speaks the truth in love (Eph 4: 15)” is crucial.” I think most would agree that shame is not a good thing. However, the twelve steps approach he uses, not to mention how he recommends that parents of gay children “lovingly confront any unacceptable behavior,” all provoke a sense of shame in a GLBT person. Imagine starting every meeting by repeating the twelve steps, but instead of alcohol abuse, you’re talking about any “sinful” behaviors related to your being GLBT. In the end, Sutton, encourages people to believe in a problem that shouldn’t be that big of a deal and creates a solution for it.

    I empathize with those who, for religious reasons, would rather not act on their “same sex attractions,” but smothering them with shame about who they are (a gay, lesbian, bisexual or trans individual) is not a healthy way of doing so.

    • 146. JonT  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:07 am

      I empathize with those who, for religious reasons, would rather not act on their “same sex attractions,” but smothering them with shame about who they are (a gay, lesbian, bisexual or trans individual) is not a healthy way of doing so.


      He (Sutton) sounds like he’s pushing ‘reparative therapy -lite’.

      I can’t see that his approach is that much different – shaming yourself (and that is what it is) into celibacy cannot be a healthy thing, regardless of the approach.

    • 147. Lesbians Love Boies  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:10 am


      Many people, including myself, practiced avoidance towards not acting on our SSA. I tried for ’20 years’ (fully aware years that I was a lesbian) until I realized that there is nothing wrong with me – except I was not allowing my own self to be true and to become the happy functioning human being I was meant to be.

      Glad I finally learned the truth that being a lesbian is ‘normal’ and allowing myself happiness is not selfish.

      • 148. Phillip R  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:42 am

        I just couldn’t imagine. I tried the avoidance (well…I guess it wasn’t avoidance…I still hadn’t really come to terms with it myself so just acted like it wasn’t there) for only a few years in my teens and that was a miserable period for me. Might have been the timing though since I was only a teen and during that growth period where all you want is acceptance from your peers.

        It just seems so crazy to me…like self-torture.

        • 149. Lesbians Love Boies  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:47 am

          I think likening it to self-torture is quite apropos.

          If only those advocating for reparative therapy could see the difference between my life then and my life now.

          Happiness and loving onself is NOT overrated!

          • 150. Phillip R  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:51 am

            That’s something I’ve always wondered about. I rarely see anyone talking about reparative therapy over a long time period. I’m really curious how those people fare 10-20 years after the fact.

            And yes…I agree. Loving yourself enough to let yourself be happy is one of the biggest blessings you can give to yourself.

          • 151. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  April 20, 2011 at 12:01 pm

            LLB, no wonder I feel kinship w/you… I spent a similar amount of time in related reparative actives.

            woot! Happiness and loving onself is NOT overrated!

          • 152. Gregory in Salt Lake City  |  April 20, 2011 at 12:14 pm

            @ Phillip…..see ex, ex gays comment 40 video I posted above…many end up like this. In Utah, we have “Evergreen” most original founds embraced their gay selves, in one case, suicide. I attended Evergreen approx 5 years

      • 153. Brad M  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:58 am

        “Glad I finally learned the truth that being a lesbian is ‘normal’ and allowing myself happiness is not selfish.”

        I’m glad too. :)

  • 154. Lesbians Love Boies  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:27 am

    Paint your nails pink on Friday, April 22, 2011.

  • 155. Rhie  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:39 am


  • 156. Maggie4NoH8  |  April 20, 2011 at 11:43 am

    Here’s a little something for everyone (some more than others – hint, hint):

    Tact is the unsaid part of what you think…

    • 157. Rhie  |  April 24, 2011 at 2:46 pm

      As someone who appreciates straight talk from others and themselves…why exactly is that a good thing?

      Also, what if the entirety of my thought is “people who passive aggressively hide behind cute little cliches instead of calling out bad behavior when and where they see it are cowards and don’t deserve my respect, or courtesy”?

      This also doesn’t make exceptions for when bluntness is called for because a person really IS being an ass and should be told so in strong terms.

      It’s also assuming that blunt = rude and blunt = something that should never happen. Those are, frankly,(gasp!) stupid assumptions.

  • 158. adambink  |  April 20, 2011 at 12:01 pm

    Let me be clear on a few things to close the dialogue on the insults here.

    One, as I said above, insults offensive to broad communities and advocating violence are not tolerated at P8TT.

    Two, getting involved in fanning the flames by hurling insults back at the offender, calling names, using sarcasm to goad someone, and so forth, are also not tolerated at P8TT.

    Three, every comment you make must be in the interest of improving community or advancing LGBT equality.

    There are a lot of comments above that did not do that. Asking someone to not use a certain word is fine and strengthens community in one way. Calling names and accusing people of this or that is not fine.

    If you see something you consider offensive, here is what you should do. Leave a comment with your polite request to not use a word or not advocate violence, explain why, post it, and move on. Then send an e-mail to flagging the comment. That’s what we have moderators for.

    If you see half a dozen comments all saying something is offensive, piling on as the 7th commenter isn’t necessary or even always helpful. Send an e-mail to if it is important to you.

    Four, points were raised by several members of the community, many in good faith, on whether this word or that word are acceptable terms and why. This is no doubt a thoughtful and worthwhile discussion to have. Off the blog. Exchange e-mails, Twitter handles, set up a blog, find another form and agree to meet there. I say that because the vitriol does nothing to improve equality and drives other members of the community away from the half-dozen, give or take, who are engaging in the flame war.

    Five, if you have been given a warning, you will receive an e-mail noting such and asked to stop.

    These guidelines are necessary because the above threads are not the basis for a positive community working together to advance equality, and so the moderators here can spend time on doing such.

    Thanks to everyone for following them and helping create a positive community.

  • […] addition to NOM’s Ruth Institute pushing ex-gay therapy […]


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